Water main grounding

[redz2500]

Hello, some jurisdictions in my area are requiring us to bond the water within 5 feet of the building entrance. They are saying that this is not an option under any circumstances. The way that I interpret the code. I only have to do that if I’m wanting to use it as a grounding conductor to extend to another electrode.

For example of my exact system:
5/8 ground rod for my primary electrode.
5/8 ground rod for my secondary electrode.
Number six conductor from the main service panel to either The water heater or a hose bib on the exterior of the home.

Normally, I would just do this and appease the inspector however, this home has no attic and no crawlspace. Wrapping conduit all the way around this home would be incredibly costly. This required poonormally, I would just do this and appease the inspector however, this home has no attic and no crawlspace. Wrapping conduit all the way around this home would be incredibly costly. Do not feel that this is a requirementdo not feel that This required per the NEC or in my case the CEC (California).

 

[infinity]

Hello, some jurisdictions in my area are requiring us to bond the water within 5 feet of the building entrance. They are saying that this is not an option under any circumstances. The way that I interpret the code. I only have to do that if I’m wanting to use it as a grounding conductor to extend to another electrode.

That is correct and how it's written in the NEC if the water pipe is a grounding electrode. If it is not an electrode and you're just bonding the metallic piping system then it can be bonded anywhere you want. Also the NEC does not use the terms primary or secondary electrodes.

 

[Jaybone812]

Hello, some jurisdictions in my area are requiring us to bond the water within 5 feet of the building entrance. They are saying that this is not an option under any circumstances. The way that I interpret the code. I only have to do that if I’m wanting to use it as a grounding conductor to extend to another electrode.

For example of my exact system:
5/8 ground rod for my primary electrode.
5/8 ground rod for my secondary electrode.
Number six conductor from the main service panel to either The water heater or a hose bib on the exterior of the home.

Normally, I would just do this and appease the inspector however, this home has no attic and no crawlspace. Wrapping conduit all the way around this home would be incredibly costly. This required poonormally, I would just do this and appease the inspector however, this home has no attic and no crawlspace. Wrapping conduit all the way around this home would be incredibly costly. Do not feel that this is a requirementdo not feel that This required per the NEC or in my case the CEC (California).

The water pipe must be tied the grounding electrode system .
You’re water pipe electrode requires a supplemental grounding electrode so you used a rod type electrode


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[retirede]

The water pipe must be tied the grounding electrode system .
You’re water pipe electrode requires a supplemental grounding electrode so you used a rod type electrode


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Not all water piping systems qualify as an electrode. If it does, it must be used and the connection made within 5’ of where it enters the building. He doesn’t state whether or not his qualifies, but it sounds like his inspector is enforcing the 5’ requirement even though it’s possible that it doesn’t qualify.

 

[Jaybone812]

Not all water piping systems qualify as an electrode. If it does, it must be used and the connection made within 5’ of where it enters the building. He doesn’t state whether or not his qualifies, but it sounds like his inspector is enforcing the 5’ requirement even though it’s possible that it doesn’t qualify.

I’m aware it’s only if the water pipe qualifies as a grounding electrde , I thought that was implied by the inspector forcing him to bond it within 5’ of entering the house . You’re right he doesn’t state whether it qualifies but I read his post as saying he thinks he doesn’t connect to or use a water pipe electrode unless it’s to extend another electrode because he has a “primary” and “secondary” rod type electrode , but in his scenario as long as the pipe qualifies there should be gec connected to the underground metal water pipe electrode and a bonding jumper connected to the ground rod for the required supplemental grounding electrode


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[augie47]

You are correct that "within 5ft of entry of the pipe" only applies IF the pipe is a grounding electrode conductor, If you are simply bonding the water line there is no required location per the NEC (some jurisdictions have a required connection,point simply to aid is confirmation of the connection).
Depending on the service size, a #6 might not be adequate, You need tom refer to 250.102 to verify the size (the same size is required for bonding even if it's not an electrode_)

 

[Jaybone812]

Not all water piping systems qualify as an electrode. If it does, it must be used and the connection made within 5’ of where it enters the building. He doesn’t state whether or not his qualifies, but it sounds like his inspector is enforcing the 5’ requirement even though it’s possible that it doesn’t qualify.

To me , his post is saying he thinks it’s optional to run a bonding jumper to the underground water pipe electrode if he has other electrodes to bond to the buildings GES . I could be wrong I think he’s under the impression that connecting to the two ground rods means he doesn’t need to bond the pipe electrode unless he wants to

 

[redz2500]

That is correct and how it's written in the NEC if the water pipe is a grounding electrode. If it is not an electrode and you're just bonding the metallic piping system then it can be bonded anywhere you want. Also the NEC does not use the terms primary or secondary electrodes.

I apologize for the duplicated sentences in my original post, Siri Hates us all.

I am not using the water main as an electrode but it does qualify. 250.50 states that all electrodes must be “bonded together”. The question is do I have to bond that within 5' of the water entrance to the dwelling?

250.53(D) Clearly states “If used” and I am choosing not to use that electrode. As it is not feasible without several hundred feet of conduit or unsightly bare copper wrapping all the way around the home.
250.68(C) States that I have options on where to connect further defined in 250.68(C)(1) which states what I can and can not do with the piping system depending on where I bond it. Why would they give me options if there is no option?

Jurisdictions are torn in my area on this and some are saying it is not and some are saying it is mandatory. It makes no sense that I can route a conductor from my main service panel to the water entrance (within 5') and then use the same hose bib to catch my supplemental rod but I can not do the reverse. I do not believe that was the intention of the 5' rule or the all bonded together requirement.

 

[Jaybone812]

I apologize for the duplicated sentences in my original post, Siri Hates us all.

I am not using the water main as an electrode but it does qualify. 250.50 states that all electrodes must be “bonded together”. The question is do I have to bond that within 5' of the water entrance to the dwelling?

250.53(D) Clearly states “If used” and I am choosing not to use that electrode. As it is not feasible without several hundred feet of conduit or unsightly bare copper wrapping all the way around the home.
250.68(C) States that I have options on where to connect further defined in 250.68(C)(1) which states what I can and can not do with the piping system depending on where I bond it. Why would they give me options if there is no option?

Jurisdictions are torn in my area on this and some are saying it is not and some are saying it is mandatory. It makes no sense that I can route a conductor from my main service panel to the water entrance (within 5') and then use the same hose bib to catch my supplemental rod but I can not do the reverse. I do not believe that was the intention of the 5' rule or the all bonded together requirement.

250.50 states all the grounding electrodes present shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system

If the underground water pipe(water main ) qualifies as a grounding electrode a gec/bonding jumper must bond the water pipe it must be part of the buildings GES
You can’t choose to use bond it into the GES
When 250.53(d) says “if used” as a grounding electrode “ they are saying if it qualifies there’s needs to be another grounding electrode to supplement the water pipe electrode
They are not saying it’s your choice to bond it if its permitted to be used as a grounding electrode because it’s not optional


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[roger]

I am not using the water main as an electrode but it does qualify.

Nuff said, as already stated you have no choice in the matter, it is a GE so you have to use it and the rules of how you have to install it apply. However, I like the idea of installers picking what we want to use verses what the code says we have to use.

 

[retirede]

I’m aware it’s only if the water pipe qualifies as a grounding electrde , I thought that was implied by the inspector forcing him to bond it within 5’ of entering the house . You’re right he doesn’t state whether it qualifies but I read his post as saying he thinks he doesn’t connect to or use a water pipe electrode unless it’s to extend another electrode because he has a “primary” and “secondary” rod type electrode , but in his scenario as long as the pipe qualifies there should be gec connected to the underground metal water pipe electrode and a bonding jumper connected to the ground rod for the required supplemental grounding electrode


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I was only attempting to add context to your post based on the original poster’s scenario. I caertainly wasn’t trying to imply that you didn’t know what you were talking about. I apologize if I came off that way.

 

[redz2500]

250.50 states all the grounding electrodes present shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system

If the underground water pipe(water main ) qualifies as a grounding electrode a gec/bonding jumper must bond the water pipe it must be part of the buildings GES
You can’t choose to use bond it into the GES
When 250.53(d) says “if used” as a grounding electrode “ they are saying if it qualifies there’s needs to be another grounding electrode to supplement the water pipe electrode
They are not saying it’s your choice to bond it if its permitted to be used as a grounding electrode because it’s not optional


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I completely understand that it has to be bonded together. I am in no way saying that I have a choice to bond it or not. My question is do I have to bond it within 5 feet of the service entrance or can I bond it somewhere else? It clearly states in 250.68 C2 that I have options. do I have those options, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode?

like I said normally, this would not be a problem, but this particular house is a real serious issue aesthetically and cost-effectively.

If this house was in Concord, California, I would not have this problem but because it’s in Oakland, California here we are. Contra Costa County that encompasses Oakland says I do not have to do that but the city of Oakland says I do not have a choice. I fully understand there are multiple ways to interpret this code and I am looking for some input. A general consensus on what other people are thinking. I’ve looked at the grounding video for Mike Holt, and it doesn’t cover this specifically. Maybe there’s a another video or a publication link somebody can guide me to that I can share with the inspectors or get a definitive education?

 

[Jaybone812]

I was only attempting to add context to your post based on the original poster’s scenario. I caertainly wasn’t trying to imply that you didn’t know what you were talking about. I apologize if I came off that way.

I didn’t take offense to your comment whatsoever, I know the comment was for context and clarity . I really apologize if my comment came off as snappy , was in know way trying to be rude I didnt take your comment out of context at all . It’s all good

 

[retirede]

I completely understand that it has to be bonded together. I am in no way saying that I have a choice to bond it or not. My question is do I have to bond it within 5 feet of the service entrance or can I bond it somewhere else? It clearly states in 250.68 C2 that I have options. do I have those options, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode?

like I said normally, this would not be a problem, but this particular house is a real serious issue aesthetically and cost-effectively.

If this house was in Concord, California, I would not have this problem but because it’s in Oakland, California here we are. Contra Costa County that encompasses Oakland says I do not have to do that but the city of Oakland says I do not have a choice. I fully understand there are multiple ways to interpret this code and I am looking for some input. A general consensus on what other people are thinking. I’ve looked at the grounding video for Mike Holt, and it doesn’t cover this specifically. Maybe there’s an another video or a publication link somebody can guide me to that I can share with the inspectors?

The short answer is - since the water main qualifies as an electrode, the rules for connecting to it must followed, regardless of what you have been allowed to do elsewhere.

 

[roger]

, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode?

You have to adhere to the rules so yes, you have to make the connection within 5'

 

[Jaybone812]

I completely understand that it has to be bonded together. I am in no way saying that I have a choice to bond it or not. My question is do I have to bond it within 5 feet of the service entrance or can I bond it somewhere else? It clearly states in 250.68 C2 that I have options. do I have those options, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode?

like I said normally, this would not be a problem, but this particular house is a real serious issue aesthetically and cost-effectively.

If this house was in Concord, California, I would not have this problem but because it’s in Oakland, California here we are. Contra Costa County that encompasses Oakland says I do not have to do that but the city of Oakland says I do not have a choice. I fully understand there are multiple ways to interpret this code and I am looking for some input. A general consensus on what other people are thinking. I’ve looked at the grounding video for Mike Holt, and it doesn’t cover this specifically. Maybe there’s a another video or a publication link somebody can guide me to that I can share with the inspectors or get a definitive education?

250.68(c)(1)within 5’


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[infinity]

I completely understand that it has to be bonded together. I am in no way saying that I have a choice to bond it or not. My question is do I have to bond it within 5 feet of the service entrance or can I bond it somewhere else? It clearly states in 250.68 C2 that I have options. do I have those options, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode

You're not bonding it which may be part of the confusion. You're using the water pipe as an electrode and connecting it to the GES via a GEC. Bonding a metal piping system that does not qualify as an electrode has a different connection requirement.

 

[jaggedben]

Hello, some jurisdictions in my area are requiring us to bond the water within 5 feet of the building entrance. They are saying that this is not an option under any circumstances. The way that I interpret the code. I only have to do that if I’m wanting to use it as a grounding conductor to extend to another electrode.

..

I agree with your reading but it's pretty into the weeds so practically speaking I wouldn't likely argue with an AHJ about it.

If this house was in Concord, California, I would not have this problem but because it’s in Oakland, California here we are. Contra Costa County that encompasses Oakland says I do not have to do that but the city of Oakland says I do not have a choice....

Yup sounds about right. And in San Francisco you'd have even less of a chance of winning the argument.

(Oakland is in Alameda County though.)

 

[Jaybone812]

I completely understand that it has to be bonded together. I am in no way saying that I have a choice to bond it or not. My question is do I have to bond it within 5 feet of the service entrance or can I bond it somewhere else? It clearly states in 250.68 C2 that I have options. do I have those options, Or am I forced to bond it within 5 feet because it is a qualified grounding electrode?

like I said normally, this would not be a problem, but this particular house is a real serious issue aesthetically and cost-effectively.

If this house was in Concord, California, I would not have this problem but because it’s in Oakland, California here we are. Contra Costa County that encompasses Oakland says I do not have to do that but the city of Oakland says I do not have a choice. I fully understand there are multiple ways to interpret this code and I am looking for some input. A general consensus on what other people are thinking. I’ve looked at the grounding video for Mike Holt, and it doesn’t cover this specifically. Maybe there’s a another video or a publication link somebody can guide me to that I can share with the inspectors or get a definitive education?

250.68(c)(2) doesn’t apply to the water pipe electrode .
250.68(c)(1) doesn’t allow the pipe the underground pipe to be used as a grounding electrode if you make the connection to the interior metal piping more than 5’ away from where it enters the building
The that pipe you connect the gec to is not a grounding electrode in the house it’s a grounding electrode when it’s underground and the the interior metal piping is only allowed to extend the connection of the gec to the actual grounding electrode if you connect within 5’ of where it enters building


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[jaggedben]

...
250.68(c)(1) doesn’t allow the pipe the underground pipe to be used as a grounding electrode if you make the connection to the interior metal piping more than 5’ away from where it enters the building
...

250.68(C)(1) doesn't actually clearly say that. The first sentence is a permission, not a requirement or prohibition. The second sentence only applies to interconnecting multiple electrodes. There is nowhere in the code that unambiguously requires the GEC connection to the water pipe to be within 5ft of the entrance.