Water main grounding

[Jaybone812]

250.68(C)(1) doesn't actually clearly say that. The first sentence is a permission, not a requirement or prohibition. The second sentence only applies to interconnecting multiple electrodes. There is nowhere in the code that unambiguously requires the GEC connection to the water pipe to be within 5ft of the entrance.

If want the underground water pipe to be your grounding electrode you absolutely have to connect the gec within 5’ of entry . The interior water pipe you connect to is allowed to extend your gec connection to the underground water pipe electrode if you connect within 5’ .
So you’re incorrect it’s definitely saying if you want to use the actual underground water pipe as a grounding electrode a gec must connect within 5’ of entering the building



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[Jaybone812]

250.68(C)(1) doesn't actually clearly say that. The first sentence is a permission, not a requirement or prohibition. The second sentence only applies to interconnecting multiple electrodes. There is nowhere in the code that unambiguously requires the GEC connection to the water pipe to be within 5ft of the entrance.

I know it’s not enforceable but the nec
enhanced content for 250.52(c) seems to agree that the interior portion of the water pipe is not the grounding electrode , it’s used to extend the gec connection to the undergruound water pipe electrode and 250. 68(c)(1) clearly says to extend the connection to the grounding electrode the connection to shall be made not more than 5’ from where the pipe enters the building . There’s an exception but doesn’t apply to this post .

 

[Jaybone812]

250.68(C)(1) doesn't actually clearly say that. The first sentence is a permission, not a requirement or prohibition. The second sentence only applies to interconnecting multiple electrodes. There is nowhere in the code that unambiguously requires the GEC connection to the water pipe to be within 5ft of the entrance.

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[jaggedben]

If want the underground water pipe to be your grounding electrode you absolutely have to connect the gec within 5’ of entry . The interior water pipe you connect to is allowed to extend your gec connection to the underground water pipe electrode if you connect within 5’ .
So you’re incorrect it’s definitely saying if you want to use the actual underground water pipe as a grounding electrode a gec must connect within 5’ of entering the building

You're just reasserting your opinion without addressing my point that the code doesn't actually say that.

I know it’s not enforceable but the nec
enhanced content for 250.52(c) seems to agree that the interior portion of the water pipe is not the grounding electrode

This is beside the point.
The code clearly allows me to drive a 10ft long 3/4" galvanized pipe into the ground 8ft and call it an electrode, and connect anywhere in the 2ft above ground. But for that matter I could also drive a 20ft long pipe 8ft into the ground and connect the GEC 12ft above ground and the code doesn't prohibit that. If you read 250.52(A)(1) it suggests the same is true for the water pipe. Or see 250.68(C)(2). We don't actually need to agree that the electrode does or doesn't stop at the surface of the ground to agree that a connection to electrically continuous metal is allowed above ground.

The content you quoted in your most recent post actually supports my position: the interior piping is "used to extend *grounding* connections" and may be "the actual GEC".

, it’s used to extend the gec connection to the undergruound water pipe electrode and 250. 68(c)(1) clearly says to extend the connection to the grounding electrode the connection to shall be made not more than 5’ from where the pipe enters the building . There’s an exception but doesn’t apply to this post .

250.68(C)(1) only clearly address interconnecting other electrodes. Read it again.

 

[infinity]

Regardless of how horribly the wording in that section is just about everyone interprets it to mean that if you run a single GEC from the service disconnect to the water pipe electrode it must be connected within the first 5' of where the water pipe enters the building.

 

[jaggedben]

Regardless of how horribly the wording in that section is just about everyone interprets it to mean that if you run a single GEC from the service disconnect to the water pipe electrode it must be connected within the first 5' of where the water pipe enters the building.

So after researching old code cycles I'm going to agree with you in principle.

The '5ft rule' was first added in 1993, and the substantiation was that owners might replace parts of the piping with plastic without realizing that the metal pipe was being relied upon for electrical continuity. After a slight revision in 1996 the language was pretty clear. (It was in 250-81).

Interior metal water piping located more than 5 ft (1.52 m) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

In 2011 they moved this to 250.68. In the course of doing so, for whatever reason which I haven't looked up, they change it to a permissive structure, thus removing the prohibition ('shall not be used') for using piping more than 5ft away. This wasn't fixed by adding the second sentence to 250.68(C)(1) until 2017. If there were better institutional memory at the NFPA perhaps the second sentence would read as the one I've quoted above, but since they left out the part about 'shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system' it is less clear than it used to be.

FWIW I've seen many old services, certainly including those dated to before 1993, where the GEC connection to the water pipe was made anywhere on the water piping system. Like, the shortest distance from the service to any water pipe, even if the water entrance was on the other side of the house.

 

[redz2500]

If want the underground water pipe to be your grounding electrode you absolutely have to connect the gec within 5’ of entry . The interior water pipe you connect to is allowed to extend your gec connection to the underground water pipe electrode if you connect within 5’ .
So you’re incorrect it’s definitely saying if you want to use the actual underground water pipe as a grounding electrode a gec must connect within 5’ of entering the building



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I do not in any way want to use the underground piping system as an electrode. I have two 5/8x8' ground rods for that purpose. I am solely wanting to tie the piping system into my established GES per 250.50.

I can not find any verbiage that states I must connect to the piping system within 5'. I am allowed to bond the hot water and gas anywhere along the piping system I choose. When 250.50 states all electrodes must be "bonded" why does that trigger anything different than bonding the other piping systems? How and where in the code book does that automatically trigger a mandatory 5' rule? Unless of course I am wanting to bond within 5' and then connect my supplemental ground rod to a hose bib or a to a Ufer on the other side of the home. I am not doing that in this application.

 

[infinity]

I do not in any way want to use the underground piping system as an electrode

You've already stated that the water pipe qualifies as an electrode there you must use it as part of the GES. You don't get to choose.

 

[redz2500]

You've already stated that the water pipe qualifies as an electrode there you must use it as part of the GES. You don't get to choose.

Correct, now the question is how am I allowed to tie into that?

 

[infinity]

Correct, now the question is how am I allowed to tie into that?

At one time the NEC required to GEC connection to the pipe to be on the street side of the water meter. That was removed from the code several decades ago and the connection is now required within 5' of where the water pipe enters the structure.

Why are saying that you do not want to use the water pipe?

 

[redz2500]

At one time the NEC required to GEC connection to the pipe to be on the street side of the water meter. That was removed from the code several decades ago and the connection is now required within 5' of where the water pipe enters the structure.

Why are saying that you do not want to use the water pipe?

Because it is on the other side of the home with no attic or crawl space. It will require roughly 200' of conduit wrapping around a multiple million dollar home or multiple foam roof penetrations with conduit up and down from the second story roof.

Nowhere in the code does it say I must tie in within 5'.

Here is the building department requirement: Where in any of the listed codes does it state that the "Bond" must take place within the first 5'? It doesn't, it is pure speculation and or interpretation of words that do not exist in relation to what 250.50 is requiring.

 

[suemarkp]

He said it is difficult to get there and "having to wrap the house in conduit". You shouldn't have to wrap the house in conduit. This connection to the water pipe most glikely needs to be #4 copper if the house has a 200A service. Is there dirt around the house? You can run it shallowly buried (12") without conduit in most areas. Or, you cold run it on the surface of the building along the siding. If its brick or concrete this is a bit harder. If the inspector is cryin for physical protection, you could guard it with a trim board.

 

[suemarkp]

Nowhere in the code does it say I must tie in within 5'.

Here is the building department requirement: Where in any of the listed codes does it state that the "Bond" must take place within the first 5'? It doesn't, it is pure speculation and or interpretation of words that do not exist in relation to what 250.50 is requiring.
View attachment 2575086

If an electrode is present, you must connect to it. If the water pipe is metal and at least 10' of it is in the earth as metal, it is present and must be used. As far as the code is concerned, that electrode only exists to within 5' of the building. Further in that that, it is a water pipe and not a bonding conductor.

If this is really difficult, perhaps work with a plumber to dig up and eliminate that 10' of metal pipe buried in the earth coming out from the house. You could cut it at 9' out and put in a PVC segment. Many houses today use polyethylene water pipe as their service piping which seems to be a good choice. This non metallic segment eliminates the water pipe as an electrode. You would still need to bond the water piping, but that can be done anywhere along the piping system.

 

[infinity]

Because it is on the other side of the home with no attic or crawl space. It will require roughly 200' of conduit wrapping around a multiple million dollar home or multiple foam roof penetrations with conduit up and down from the second story roof

Just dig a shallow trench a few inches deep and run it in the ground. There is no minimum burial depth for a GEC so you won't need to dig much.

 

[redz2500]

If an electrode is present, you must connect to it. If the water pipe is metal and at least 10' of it is in the earth as metal, it is present and must be used. As far as the code is concerned, that electrode only exists to within 5' of the building. Further in that that, it is a water pipe and not a bonding conductor.

If this is really difficult, perhaps work with a plumber to dig up and eliminate that 10' of metal pipe buried in the earth coming out from the house. You could cut it at 9' out and put in a PVC segment. Many houses today use polyethylene water pipe as their service piping which seems to be a good choice. This non metallic segment eliminates the water pipe as an electrode. You would still need to bond the water piping, but that can be done anywhere along the piping system.

As jaggedben stated above the ('shall not be used') for using piping more than 5ft away was removed in the 2011 cycle. If it was removed how is it still prohibited. If I am being honest this appears to be an old habits die hard scenario that we are stuck in.

250.52 does not say that the electrode stops 5' in. If you read it the way I see it, it say that the piping must be made continuous by bonding around anything that would block conductivity until you reach the grounding electrode conductor (attached to a hose bib opposite side of the home).

250.68(C)(2) states I can use it to interconnect other electrodes if I bond within in 5'. It and or no other codes prohibit me from using the piping system for bonding the sole electrode I am bonding to establish the GES. It has not been prohibited since 2011 where this would not be a debate as it was clearly prohibited.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe ​

A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

The piping system can easily be confirmed to be electrically continuous with testing.

 

[infinity]

As @jaggedben stated above the ('shall not be used') for using piping more than 5ft away was removed in the 2011 cycle.

Just for the record you've quoted jaggedben but it appears that jaggedben has changed his position:

So after researching old code cycles I'm going to agree with you in principle.

The '5ft rule' was first added in 1993, and the substantiation was that owners might replace parts of the piping with plastic without realizing that the metal pipe was being relied upon for electrical continuity. After a slight revision in 1996 the language was pretty clear. (It was in 250-81).

250.52 does not say that the electrode stops 5' in.

Correct, the electrode stops where it enters the structure and is no longer in contact with the earth, typically outside of the foundation wall. The NEC allows the first 5' of the water pipe that is within the structure to extend to the electrode so that the GEC can connect to it within that 5'. That 5' of metal pipe is not the electrode.

Also 250.68(C)(1) has an exception where the 5' connection rule is waived. If the connection were not required to be within 5' then there would be no need for the exception.

 

[jaggedben]

Just for the record you've quoted jaggedben but it appears that jaggedben has changed his position:

Sort of. I agree it's the intent, and a reasonable interpretation. But not that the current language is unambiguous.

...

Also 250.68(C)(1) has an exception where the 5' connection rule is waived. If the connection were not required to be within 5' then there would be no need for the exception.

The exception could still apply to interconnecting other electrodes even if it doesn't apply to the GEC connection for the water pipe itself.

 

[infinity]

The exception could still apply to interconnecting other electrodes even if it doesn't apply to the GEC connection for the water pipe itself.

If the GEC can connect anywhere on the water pipe why do we need an exception for qualified persons?

Do you agree that the electrode stops where it is no longer buried in the earth?

 

[Electromatic]

I've seen the argument that the 5' section only applies to piping being used to interconnect electrodes--and not when connecting the GEC to an underground metal water pipe. However, since a water pipe always needs a supplemental electrode, even if you install a GEC straight from the service disconnect to the water pipe, it is ultimately going to be connecting to other electrodes.

It seems the intent is to make the underground pipe (≥10') the electrode and to allow the first 5' of interior pipe to serve as connection point. Interestingly, the 250.52(A) description does bring up the ambiguity to which I think @jaggedben refers.
"A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0m ... to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor ...."

That seems to imply that any length of electrically continuous pipe is itself the electrode as long as ≥10' of it is in direct contact with the earth. What if you had a single 20' length of metal pipe--1/2 interior and 1/2 underground?

I've certainly wished for a loophole on this connection point on some service upgrades, panel changes, etc. It seems like there should be one similar to the ufer exception in existing buildings.

 

[infinity]

It seems the intent is to make the underground pipe (≥10') the electrode and to allow the first 5' of interior pipe to serve as connection point. Interestingly, the 250.52(A) description does bring up the ambiguity to which I think @jaggedben refers.

I agree that is the intent and the way that it is most interpreted. The wording could use some work. So in a nutshell. The water pipe electrode ends outside in the ground. The GEC is required to be connected to the water pipe electrode itself. The 5' rule is needed to allow you to make the connection to the electrode via the water pipe inside of the structure instead of having to run the GEC outside and connecting in the ground. The reason that there is a 5' limit is that it is less likely that the first 5' of pipe will be changed to a non-conductive pipe without someone noticing it.