Water Pipe ground

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Jacob S

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Hey guys,
If you use an ufer ground as your primary electrode, do you still need to bond the water system within 5 feet of its entrance to the building? By reading the bonding requirements of 250.104, it seems like I can size the water pipe bond per 250.66 and run it to the closest water pipe.

I am being told i need to run the water pipe bond to the entrance, but I disagree. I only run the GEC to within 5 feet of the entrance if the water pipe is my primary electrode.

I appreciate your help. Article 250 can be a little cloudy sometimes!

Jacob
 
Jacob S said:
Either
Thanks
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I'll just say that if you are dealing with a service upgrade, you usually do not have a way to verify the length of the metal water pipe in the ground. In my jurisdiction, in existing installations, we are requrired to bond the metal water pipe and size it per 250.66. My primary electode is the ufer for this, but there are things to consider given the specific installation circumstances. If that is to cryptic, I must apologize, it's late.

....you have a good question here and are bound to get many responses. It being past my bedtime......stay tuned for an interesting discussion. :smile:
 
Jacob S said:
Hey guys,
If you use an ufer ground as your primary electrode, do you still need to bond the water system within 5 feet of its entrance to the building?

I am being told i need to run the water pipe bond to the entrance, but I disagree. I only run the GEC to within 5 feet of the entrance if the water pipe is my primary electrode.

Jacob
Click to expand...

Where in the code does it say you must run your gec to within 5' of where the water enters the building? I can find in 250-52 that interior connections cannot be made to water pipes at other than 5' from the entrance to the building, but nowhere does it require it be made there as far as I know. You can make the connection outside the building any place as far as I can tell, 5', 10' 15' or any length.
 
quoqueelectric,
If you are referring to old threads, I think the forum closes them after a period of time. It seems anything posted in 2007 and before are closed.

Thanks Macmikeman,
250.52 is what i was referring to. You are right that you do not have to attach it inside the building, but if you do, you have to connect it within 5 feet, in order for it to qualify as a electrode. Whole reasoning that someone might install a plastic fitting or something.

I just want to confirm that to meet the bonding requirements of 250.104, you can bond the metal water pipe system anywhere in the structure.

Thanks again
 
Jacob S said:
Hey guys,
If you use an ufer ground as your primary electrode, do you still need to bond the water system within 5 feet of its entrance to the building? By reading the bonding requirements of 250.104, it seems like I can size the water pipe bond per 250.66 and run it to the closest water pipe.

I am being told i need to run the water pipe bond to the entrance, but I disagree. I only run the GEC to within 5 feet of the entrance if the water pipe is my primary electrode.

I appreciate your help. Article 250 can be a little cloudy sometimes!

Jacob
Click to expand...


There is no code definition of a primary electrode. You are required to use the water pipe if it qualifies as an electrode by being buried for at least 10'. The GEC must connect within 5' of it's emergence into the building. Then you need to supplement it with another electrode.
 
Thanks Rob,
I I am sorry about this question. I feel i must have it poorly late last night. I understand when the water pipe is being used as an electrode, the GEC conductor must connect within 5 feet of entry.

If there is plastic piping to the homes foundation where it then converts to copper inside, where do you have to attach a bond? In this case the, the interior metal piping needs only bonding, per 250.104. So, can this bond connect to the piping system anywhere?
 
Jacob S said:
If there is plastic piping to the homes foundation where it then converts to copper inside, where do you have to attach a bond?
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Yes, in that particular case it can be bonded anywhere. :smile:
 
Jacob S said:
Thanks Rob,
I I am sorry about this question. I feel i must have it poorly late last night. I understand when the water pipe is being used as an electrode, the GEC conductor must connect within 5 feet of entry.

If there is plastic piping to the homes foundation where it then converts to copper inside, where do you have to attach a bond? In this case the, the interior metal piping needs only bonding, per 250.104. So, can this bond connect to the piping system anywhere?
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If there is no metal piping entering the building then , yes, the bond for the metallic piping within the building can attach anywhere.
 
Jacob,

The confusion of where to connect to a water pipe can be cleared up with a little understanding of what is what.

From the outside to five feet inside metal water pipe is an electrode. In other words the electrode stops at 60 inches after it enters a building or at the first removable device such as a meter, filter, softener or any other device that can be removed. This first five feet is electrode and fall under 250.52(A)(1)

From a point five feet after entering the building on the metal water pipe is interior water pipes. These pipes now fall under the scope of 250.104.

 
jwelectric said:
From the outside to five feet inside metal water pipe is an electrode. In other words the electrode stops at 60 inches after it enters a building or at the first removable device such as a meter, filter, softener or any other device that can be removed. This first five feet is electrode and fall under 250.52(A)(1)
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Mike,

Where does it say that the electrode ends at the water meter etc.?
 
infinity said:
Mike,

Where does it say that the electrode ends at the water meter etc.?
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This is taught in Elec. 101 and is pretty fundamental with just a little understanding of grounding and bonding. Unless this is an industrial installation the last sentence of 250.52(A)(1) should be enough to make it clear that the electrode stops at 60 inches after entry of the building.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.

Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
 
jwelectric said:
This is taught in Elec. 101 and is pretty fundamental with just a little understanding of grounding and bonding.
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Why do you have to be like that? You know Trevor is not a newbie.


Unless this is an industrial installation the last sentence of 250.52(A)(1) should be enough to make it clear that the electrode stops at 60 inches after entry of the building.
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That is not the answer to his question, you had said

jwelectric said:
From the outside to five feet inside metal water pipe is an electrode. In other words the electrode stops at 60 inches after it enters a building or at the first removable device such as a meter, filter, softener or any other device that can be removed. This first five feet is electrode and fall under 250.52(A)(1)
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Trevor asked this

Mike,

Where does it say that the electrode ends at the water meter etc.?
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So can you bring me to electric 101 and explain the fundamentals?
 
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Thanks Bob, maybe after Mike finishes re-reading his insults he can actually answer the question I asked.:rolleyes:
 
infinity said:
There is no code definition of a primary electrode. You are required to use the water pipe if it qualifies as an electrode by being buried for at least 10'. The GEC must connect within 5' of it's emergence into the building. Then you need to supplement it with another electrode.
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Can you please quote to me the exact place in the code that says a water gec must be connected within 5" of its emergence into the building? I say that is a twisting of the wording that is present in 250-52. You cannot attach at any point more than 5' of its emergence into the building. Unless I am mistaken, you can certainly attach it more than 5 feet away from the building as long as you are outside of the building. Maybe they don't like that method where you reside but the code is still written the way it is written.
 
macmikeman said:
Can you please quote to me the exact place in the code that says a water gec must be connected within 5" of its emergence into the building?...
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Maybe your looking for 250-52(A)(1), "...Interior metal water piping located more than 5' from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as part of the grounding electrode system:-?
 
tryinghard said:
Maybe your looking for 250-52(A)(1), "...Interior metal water piping located more than 5' from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as part of the grounding electrode system:-?
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Nope, that wouldn't be it cause it contains the word "interior". Thanks anyway, you have helped me to establish my point. I bet 250-52 is the most misquoted thing in the code simply because just about everybody reads right past the word interior and focuses on the rest of the sentence.
 
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