Water Pipe ground

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infinity said:
I agree Bob and that's all that I was asking. Where does it say that you can't use a jumper around the device to provide the continuity? I don't believe it says that.
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Read 250.64 and see if you agree that a bonding jumper can be used in the path of an equipment grounding conductor.
 
georgestolz said:
Mike, IMO, the electrode includes the water meter and the piping running into the interior of the building, into eternity.
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georgestolz said:
We are restricted in what portion of that electrode we are permitted to connect to.

When we connect to the electrode on the "load" side of the water meter, then we are required to install a jumper to maintain the integrity of the GEC's connection to the business end of that grounding electrode. We are also required to install a jumper to maintain the bonding connection from the GEC to the interior piping. These two jumpers are normally one and the same.

Do you dispute any of these statements, and if so, why?
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Yes I dispute this thinking.
If I had a metal water system installed in a building that was supplied with nonmetallic pipe then there would be no electrode.
If I had a metal water system installed in a building that was supplied with only nine feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth I would still not have an electrode.

The purpose of a grounding electrode is to make a connection to earth. The interior metal pipes make no such connection including the first five feet. 250.52(A)(1) gives us permission to use this first five feet of the interior metal pipe to terminate the grounding electrode conductor to the 10 feet or more of metal pipe that is in contact with earth.

Should a grounding electrode conductor be installed to the water pipe that was being used as an electrode, this means the part of the pipe that is in direct contact with earth, from the panel then this conductor is required by 250.64(C) to be continuous and this would make a bonding jumper installed to ensure continuity noncompliant.
 
jwelectric said:
Yes I dispute this thinking.
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And yet all you can do is say you dispute it, you can not show anything from the NEC to back it up.

Read 250.64 and see if you agree that a bonding jumper can be used in the path of an equipment grounding conductor.
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I have read it, and my GEC is continuous to the electrode, the electrode extends 5' inside the building regardless of filters or meters.
 
raider1 said:
A slang term for a concrete encased electrode. It is called a UFER in honor of Herbert Ufer who invented the concrete encased electrode.

Chris
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Thanks,, I'm going to remember that.
You ever seen them 10 ft. copper ground rods for laying horizonnially in the concrete. they are bumpy. Kind of like the flex only smoother and of course rigid They must be ufer's , too.
 
iwire said:
And yet all you can do is say you dispute it, you can not show anything from the NEC to back it up.



I have read it, and my GEC is continuous to the electrode, the electrode extends 5' inside the building regardless of filters or meters.
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I disagree with you whole heartly.
 
jwelectric said:
Should a grounding electrode conductor be installed to the water pipe that was being used as an electrode, this means the part of the pipe that is in direct contact with earth, from the panel then this conductor is required by 250.64(C) to be continuous and this would make a bonding jumper installed to ensure continuity noncompliant.
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...Do you consider the clamp connection to the pipe to be a splice even though the GEC itself is continuous? The conductor passing through the clamps without a splice. I'm reading 250.64(C) as you are and am confused by your argument.
 
jwelectric said:


Yes I dispute this thinking.
If I had a metal water system installed in a building that was supplied with nonmetallic pipe then there would be no electrode.
If I had a metal water system installed in a building that was supplied with only nine feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth I would still not have an electrode.

The purpose of a grounding electrode is to make a connection to earth. The interior metal pipes make no such connection including the first five feet...
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Mike,

You don't need a water pipe for an electrode but you must bond it if it is metallic. There are over six other types of electrodes that can be used often its best to just use another.

The water pipe is the most volatile that is why it must be supplemented.

Mike Holt has some pictures that can help convey water pipe used as electrode:

1113921123_4.jpg
 
frizbeedog said:
...Do you consider the clamp connection to the pipe to be a splice even though the GEC itself is continuous? The conductor passing through the clamps without a splice. I'm reading 250.64(C) as you are and am confused by your argument.
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Would this not be installing the 250.104 and 250.52(A)(1) in the same motion. In other words the grounding electrode conductor is landing on the electrode.
 
tryinghard said:
Mike,

You don't need a water pipe for an electrode but you must bond it if it is metallic. There are over six other types of electrodes that can be used often its best to just use another.

The water pipe is the most volatile that is why it must be supplemented.

Mike Holt has some pictures that can help convey water pipe used as electrode:


1113921123_4.jpg
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I can promise you that I am not the first nor the only person in this world that disagrees with some of the things that Mr. Holt says.

I disagree with the installation as pictured above.
 
jwelectric said:
I can promise you that I am not the first nor the only person in this world that disagrees with some of the things that Mr. Holt says.

I disagree with the installation as pictured above.
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Well, I agree with Bob and Mike, as depicted in his graphic (below). We can simply agree to disagree.

1113921123_4.jpg
 
Mike,
I think 250.52(A)(1) is very clear that the water pipe grounding electrode extends 5' inside the building even where there are meters or filters instaled in the water line within 5' of the pipe's point of entrance into the building.
250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
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jwelectric said:
Would this not be installing the 250.104 and 250.52(A)(1) in the same motion. In other words the grounding electrode conductor is landing on the electrode.
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I was just looking for clarification, that the jumper, via the clamp was not the splice for the electrode connection. Personnally, I don't know why you would need the jumper if there was ample room to install the connection on the supply side of the meter. Peace. :smile:
 
jwelectric said:
I can promise you that I am not the first nor the only person in this world that disagrees with some of the things that Mr. Holt says...
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All electrodes are fabricated or qualified in some way as example:
  • a rod is at least 8' long and 1/2" diameter
  • a CCE is at least 20' and 1/2" diameter or 20' and #4 cu wire
  • a pipe is at least 8' and 3/4" diameter
  • and the metal underground water pipe is at least "10'...or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints".
These are just some electrodes.

The GEC is "defined" and properly sized (250-66) and is continuous from electrode to service disconnect if installed as per 250-24 & 64.

If bonding is needed around a meter or joint I don't know why it would ever need to be larger then #4 matching a CEE
 
I feel reasonable sure that this metal pipe can be made continuous as long as it fits into the first sentence of section 250.52(A)(1)

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
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(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.
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So far this section has addressed nothing but the part of the pipe that is the electrode and yes it does say that any ?insulating joints or insulating pipe? can be bonded around. It does not address a removable device as outlined in 250.53(D)(1)

Then the permission to use the first five feet of the interior pipe as the point of connection is outlined in the second sentence.

Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
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Again I don?t see any relief to bond around a removable device or even relief to bond around any part of ?insulating joints or insulating pipe?

Now I have said all I got to say about this and it is up to you to decide on just how you want of interpret this section. I think that I have made myself clear on what I believe the requirement states.
 
Mike, it is right in front of you but you do not want to see it. :)

250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
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All I have to say is I am very grateful for plastic piping. :D

Well, I guess I have more to say--- I just read the entire thread and as an outside observer I must say that I did not take any of Mike's comments as an insult. I must admit I have never seen Mike insult anyone so I couldn't imagine it was meant that way.

That being said I am not sure what difference the entire situation makes. If I have a filter that is removeable I must still bond the copper piping after the filter.. Yes????

I presume I can run a continuous copper to the electrode and continue the wire without splice to the piping on the load side of the filter. This would satisfy Mike--No??

If that is so then the only difference between the bonding jumper and running a new conductor back to the service to bond the water piping is the extra clamp. The jumper has 2 connections and if we bond the interior piping after the filter back to the panel we are still depending on 2 connections.

I don't see this as any different than the bonding jumper between the two ground rods.
 
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