Ways around using AFCI breakers and rewiring my house during panel upgrade

ramsy said:
More AHJ’s are forcing panel flippers to fix inside wiring issues, per 406.4(D)(2)

That means you can’t just flip panels, without protecting the inside remodel outlets.
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Not in my area. They only look at the new work under the permit. If its just a service change they don't step foot inside the house. If its a service change and say kitchen remodel, they will look at the service and kitchen wiring but nothing else.
 
ramsy said:
Did you check your local amendments?
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There are very few local amendments to the CEC/NEC in the SF Bay area in places other than the city of SF. I'm not aware of any amendments related to AFCI/GFCI requirements. What local climatic, topographical or geological conditions would be used for such amendments?

Can you provide a link to local amendment in CA related to AFCI/GFCI?
 
La elec mech said:
Would an outlet branch-circuit AFCI receptacle be suitable with a shared neutral?
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The answer to the above is not clear.

Originally all AFCI devices incorporate ground fault detection as part of the AFCI function, now many (most??) do not. I can't tell if AFCI receptacles in general include ground fault detection or not.

If you wish to use an AFCI receptacle to protect the circuit downstream of the receptacle, and if that receptacle includes ground fault detection as part of the AFCI function, then then the receptacle will not work with a shared neutral circuit. (This is just like trying to use a GFCI receptacle to protect a shared neutral circuit; current on the neutral from the 'other' circuit will be detected as a ground fault.)

I see reports of AFCI receptacles tripping on shared neutral circuits, but nothing in the Leviton AFCI receptacle spec sheet about ground fault detection, so this may be a problem with previous generations of product.

-Jonathan
 
ramsy said:
Not my job to check your local amendments, or offer remodel-hazard abatement as an option in your bids.
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First you claimed that the NEC requires AFCI/GFCI protection to be added when changing a panel yet can't show us the article in the NEC. Then you claim local codes require it. All of us here would like to see an example of such local code. Is it that hard to post a link?

It has nothing to do with me or anyone else bidding jobs. Its about you being honest and not making things up just because you hate AFCI/GFCI protection.
 
Fred B said:
Not every manufacturer makes them. The imbalance mentioned by OP is an issue on the breakers by MFG who still use ground fault detection as part of the AFCI breakers (not true dual function),

I know Siemens and now GE-ABB has 2 pole AFCI breakers. Here is an article by ABB about their new product:

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Dennis Alwon said:
I looks like sq. D homeline has them also

View attachment 2579834
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These aren’t compatible with the plug in style panels correct? I forgot to mention that I already have Square D panel and it’s the plug-on neutral
 
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winnie said:
The answer to the above is not clear.

Originally all AFCI devices incorporate ground fault detection as part of the AFCI function, now many (most??) do not. I can't tell if AFCI receptacles in general include ground fault detection or not.

If you wish to use an AFCI receptacle to protect the circuit downstream of the receptacle, and if that receptacle includes ground fault detection as part of the AFCI function, then then the receptacle will not work with a shared neutral circuit. (This is just like trying to use a GFCI receptacle to protect a shared neutral circuit; current on the neutral from the 'other' circuit will be detected as a ground fault.)

I see reports of AFCI receptacles tripping on shared neutral circuits, but nothing in the Leviton AFCI receptacle spec sheet about ground fault detection, so this may be a problem with previous generations of product.

-Jonathan
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If gfci need like kitchen counter, laundry or basement, to proceed different: separate afci and gfci or use specialty afci cum gfci breaker
 
Deltaforce said:
If
If gfci need like kitchen counter, laundry or basement, to proceed different: separate afci and gfci or use specialty afci cum gfci breaker
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I believe you are confusing two issues. The question was if an AFCI receptacle can be used to protect the branch circuit wiring if the branch circuit contains a shared neutral. My answer is that _if_ the AFCI receptacle contains ground fault detection as part of its AFCI function, then the shared neutral will be a problem.

This is not a case of a system that requires GFCI protection, but rather the issue caused by the 'implied' ground fault protection in some AFCI systems. My understanding is that AFCI systems do not require ground fault detection, but that early AFCI systems used ground fault detection in order to meet some of the performance requirements.

If GFCI protection is required for this installation, and there is a shared neutral, then as you say the only choices are separate protection at each receptacle or the use of a breaker. A receptacle device cannot be used for ground fault protection of a shared neutral circuit. (In theory, you could have a receptacle type device that monitors both legs of the circuit, but I don't believe these are manufactured.)
 
winnie said:
I believe you are confusing two issues. The question was if an AFCI receptacle can be used to protect the branch circuit wiring if the branch circuit contains a shared neutral. My answer is that _if_ the AFCI receptacle contains ground fault detection as part of its AFCI function, then the shared neutral will be a problem.

This is not a case of a system that requires GFCI protection, but rather the issue caused by the 'implied' ground fault protection in some AFCI systems. My understanding is that AFCI systems do not require ground fault detection, but that early AFCI systems used ground fault detection in order to meet some of the performance requirements.

If GFCI protection is required for this installation, and there is a shared neutral, then as you say the only choices are separate protection at each receptacle or the use of a breaker. A receptacle device cannot be used for ground fault protection of a shared neutral circuit. (In theory, you could have a receptacle type device that monitors both legs of the circuit, but I don't believe these are manufactured.)
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5ma gfci requirement separate,
As you say afci older version not prevent trip on ground fault
Afci to provided without groundfault sense
But some circuits like kitchen counter top require gfci protection
Such circuits afci protection only not enough
Separate gfci protection to provide for such circuits
 
Deltaforce said:
5ma gfci requirement separate,
As you say afci older version not prevent trip on ground fault
Afci to provided without groundfault sense
But some circuits like kitchen counter top require gfci protection
Such circuits afci protection only not enough
Separate gfci protection to provide for such circuits
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Which is the reason Dual Function breakers exists. They provide AFCI and GFCI protection
 
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