Well pump drawing excessive current only when on portable generator...

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Oh!!! A simple evaluation of starting current vs voltage drop doesn't tell the whole story as I overlooked power factor!!! The powerfactor would also terrible when starting. That alone with cause tremendous inefficiency as current and voltage will be out of phase with oneanother.
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Piling on here: if the frequency sags because the prime mover slows down, then the proper V/Hz ratio isn't being maintained (there's a voltage drop as well, but they may not match in slope). If the frequency rolls off, but the voltage stays higher than the proper V/Hz ratio, the motor's magnetics will go into saturation and will drastically increase current draw. That's in addition to the probable issue of the start cap never coming out of the circuit, also increasing current.

Is changing the well pump to a 3-phase model, and running it with a small VFD an option (assuming changing the generator isn't)? They're much easier on power supplies, and can ramp the motor up and down, eliminating starting surges, as well as water hammer. Plenty of VFD's have single phase input and 3-phase output at the HP levels you're talking about.


SceneryDriver
 
Piling on here: if the frequency sags because the prime mover slows down, then the proper V/Hz ratio isn't being maintained (there's a voltage drop as well, but they may not match in slope). If the frequency rolls off, but the voltage stays higher than the proper V/Hz ratio, the motor's magnetics will go into saturation and will drastically increase current draw. That's in addition to the probable issue of the start cap never coming out of the circuit, also increasing current.

Is changing the well pump to a 3-phase model, and running it with a small VFD an option (assuming changing the generator isn't)? They're much easier on power supplies, and can ramp the motor up and down, eliminating starting surges, as well as water hammer. Plenty of VFD's have single phase input and 3-phase output at the HP levels you're talking about.

SceneryDriver

You covered some very good points but also remember power factor wher current an voltage are not in phase. Remember those 3hp 120v single phase motors do have 2 capacitors on them, one for starting which is common, but the second capacitor brings the power pf back in line in order to get that HP out of 120v.
So don't overlook the affect that pf has when starting a motor.
 
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Piling on here: if the frequency sags because the prime mover slows down, then the proper V/Hz ratio isn't being maintained (there's a voltage drop as well, but they may not match in slope). If the frequency rolls off, but the voltage stays higher than the proper V/Hz ratio, the motor's magnetics will go into saturation and will drastically increase current draw. That's in addition to the probable issue of the start cap never coming out of the circuit, also increasing current.

Is changing the well pump to a 3-phase model, and running it with a small VFD an option (assuming changing the generator isn't)? They're much easier on power supplies, and can ramp the motor up and down, eliminating starting surges, as well as water hammer. Plenty of VFD's have single phase input and 3-phase output at the HP levels you're talking about.


SceneryDriver



Is a VFD cost effective , I have no idea ?




Don
 
Is a VFD cost effective , I have no idea ?




Don
If you don't already own the motor and are designing new so that you can use a 3 phase motor from the get go, then yes, a VFD is often a cost effective way to do this at 3HP 230V and below. Single phase submersible pump motors are not as simplistic as surface mounted motors; the capacitors for starting it are usually too big to go down the hole with the motor. So what they do is put the caps up on top in the "control box" and use a voltage relay that looks at the motor back EMF to determine when to switch the starting cap out of the circuit with a contactor. All that added apparatus helps offset the added cost of a VFD and a much simpler motor arrangement.

But to use a VFD, he would have to buy a new submersible motor as well as arrange to have it pulled and replaced (not easy or cheap on a 400' deep well), and he already owns the single phase submersible motor that is already at the bottom of the hole. So I don't think the VFD option is as viable now as just getting a better generator.

Most likely, as I think about this to write that answer, the TYPE of submersible and type of genset might be the culprits here. Some smaller inexpensive portable generators now use a relatively inexpensive engine with a crappy little governor (if any) and an inverter to create the regulated AC output at a constant frequency. But those don't do as well with motor starting loads, that's why they use the marketing term "surge capacity" rather than specifically SAY "motor starting capacity", because it kind of hedges their bets. So it might work OK starting a regular single phase motor with an old fashioned centrifugal switch, but might be troublesome for some types of submersibles. There are two types; "2 wire" and "3 wire", referring to the number of wires (NOT including the ground) that are going down the hole to the motor. In basic "3 wire" motors, there are 3 hot lines going down the hole; two for windings and one from the capacitor. What happens, as kwired already said, is that there is a potential relay in a "control box" at the top of the well. The voltage relay reacts to the back EMF of the motor and when it gets to speed, the relay drops out, removing the start capacitor from the circuit. From my experience those work fine on all types of generators and solar inverters, etc.
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But on some submersibles sold as "2 wire" where the caps and controls are on the motor (and even some 3 wire versions with "solid state" controls), the relay is not a simple electromagnetic device, it is a solid state device with sensors etc. With the inverter output from the generator, it may be interacting with the solid state sensors and the device fails to respond correctly, therefore never taking out the starting cap. I know that I have seen that kind of warning on solar inverter based systems for submersible well pumps, telling you that you must get rid of the solid state controls and put in old fashioned voltage relay based controls. Look for info on the pump and if anything says "solid state", I'd be very suspicious.
 
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Measure the size of the 400 + feet of wire, and calculate the voltage drop across that, at starting current, and add that to the voltage drop you have already measured.
 
Never did I expect this kind of response/discourse to my question. I sincerely appreciate what everyone has had to say about the matter. At this point I'm afraid that I've washed my hands of it. I'm thinking that it's like someone saying that they want to fly from here to Europe in a Cessna 152. Possible, but not the best way to do it! Thank you all so much again for your input. I have indeed learned something... I think I will bow out at this point.

Take care,

Scott
 
OK lets play .... I got the term right this time , not a soft start ... Install a $7 Hard start capacitor .

What do you think ?




Don
Hard starts are nothing more then a higher microfarad capacitor and a control circuit to switch it at the right time - the intent is to create more phase shift and produce more torque to get the "hard starting" motor to start. It will only make the problem worse as it will cause a demand for more power to try to start the motor. Soft starting or VFD is what would be effective - but in order to get that it may cost more then finding a generator that will start what the OP has

Piling on here: if the frequency sags because the prime mover slows down, then the proper V/Hz ratio isn't being maintained (there's a voltage drop as well, but they may not match in slope). If the frequency rolls off, but the voltage stays higher than the proper V/Hz ratio, the motor's magnetics will go into saturation and will drastically increase current draw. That's in addition to the probable issue of the start cap never coming out of the circuit, also increasing current.

Is changing the well pump to a 3-phase model, and running it with a small VFD an option (assuming changing the generator isn't)? They're much easier on power supplies, and can ramp the motor up and down, eliminating starting surges, as well as water hammer. Plenty of VFD's have single phase input and 3-phase output at the HP levels you're talking about.


SceneryDriver

As I said above - finding a generator that will start this motor likely will cost less then finding a VFD and replacing the pump/motor.

Even using some specialty drive like Franklin's Monodrive which is a VFD that will run a three wire single phase submersible - may run this motor on this generator - but those drives are not all that inexpensive either.
 
Hard starts are nothing more then a higher microfarad capacitor and a control circuit to switch it at the right time - the intent is to create more phase shift and produce more torque to get the "hard starting" motor to start. It will only make the problem worse as it will cause a demand for more power to try to start the motor. Soft starting or VFD is what would be effective - but in order to get that it may cost more then finding a generator that will start what the OP has



As I said above - finding a generator that will start this motor likely will cost less then finding a VFD and replacing the pump/motor.

Even using some specialty drive like Franklin's Monodrive which is a VFD that will run a three wire single phase submersible - may run this motor on this generator - but those drives are not all that inexpensive either.



Thanks K-Wired


Don
 
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