Wet Romex

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electricmanscott said:
How's the code ref coming along Jim?
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Taken from IAEI News, January/February 2006 Ed, pgs 88 & 89


Quote:

In general, cables with PVC insulation and jacket can withstand immersion in clean water for a short period of time without being damaged as long as the ends are not immersed. For example,

a building may be subject to rainfall while under construction, and water may come in contact with the outer jacket of nonmetallic-sheathed cable. This is not prohibited by the NEC. The UL Standard for Safety for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cables, ANSI/UL 719, requires Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Tests after 24-hour water immersion of cable samples (with ends in free air).

If the ends of the cable are immersed for any period of time, however, the internal paper wrapping around the bare equipment grounding conductor will absorb and transfer the water into the cable assembly. The water may then start degrading the insulation or possibly corrode the conductors.

read the last part. The violation is you now have water damage because it gets in the ends.
Or are you going to tell me that the water only got on the rest of the cable and the ends never get wet.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Taken from IAEI News, January/February 2006 Ed, pgs 88 & 89


Quote:

In general, cables with PVC insulation and jacket can withstand immersion in clean water for a short period of time without being damaged as long as the ends are not immersed. For example,

a building may be subject to rainfall while under construction, and water may come in contact with the outer jacket of nonmetallic-sheathed cable. This is not prohibited by the NEC. The UL Standard for Safety for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cables, ANSI/UL 719, requires Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Tests after 24-hour water immersion of cable samples (with ends in free air).

If the ends of the cable are immersed for any period of time, however, the internal paper wrapping around the bare equipment grounding conductor will absorb and transfer the water into the cable assembly. The water may then start degrading the insulation or possibly corrode the conductors.

read the last part. The violation is you now have water damage because it gets in the ends.
Or are you going to tell me that the water only got on the rest of the cable and the ends never get wet.
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The key here is the ends being immersed. It doesn't say the ends can't get wet...it says they can't be immeresed. There is a big difference. I really don't see the ends being immeresed with a leaky roof or when installing NM before the building is dried in. Now if you are talking floods where the cable ends are under water, I can maybe see that there may be a problem
 
So what is the code ref Jim that allows an inspector to fail a rough beacuse the building was not watertight at the time of the rough.

I am not letting this go untill I get a valid code article number or you admit you are talking hogwash.

I'd suggest you actually read what you are quoting.
 
electricmanscott said:
So what is the code ref Jim that allows an inspector to fail a rough beacuse the building was not watertight at the time of the rough.

I am not letting this go untill I get a valid code article number or you admit you are talking hogwash.

I'd suggest you actually read what you are quoting.
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I did not say he can tag you because they might get wet. I am saying that if on his visit it is raining or he sees water on floor and checks to see if any wire got wet then he can tag it for damaged ul material. If you lived in FL that is every day in the summer. Even if the inspectors ignores this you need to stop and think. You have splices all over this house and wire nuts that will fill up with water. Any heavy rain will likely soak everything in that house untill its dryed in. Your name goes on this job and your fixing it. Ever look at a wire nut thats been in back of pickup truck. Do care about what your giving the customer.
Take a piece of romex and lay it outside with ends faced up and after even one rain open it up and look at what you have. Nothing will undo what has happened. Yes it will dry out and pass a meg test.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I did not say he can tag you because they might get wet. I am saying that if on his visit it is raining or he sees water on floor and checks to see if any wire got wet then he can tag it for damaged ul material. If you lived in FL that is every day in the summer. Even if the inspectors ignores this you need to stop and think. You have splices all over this house and wire nuts that will fill up with water. Any heavy rain will likely soak everything in that house untill its dryed in. Your name goes on this job and your fixing it. Ever look at a wire nut thats been in back of pickup truck. Do care about what your giving the customer.
Take a piece of romex and lay it outside with ends faced up and after even one rain open it up and look at what you have. Nothing will undo what has happened. Yes it will dry out and pass a meg test.
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This is why I said I don't totally disagree with you, but since we have about the same annual rain fall as the Sahara, it isn't really much of a problem here or in AZ probably, but I could see where some places it would be a real concern like WA or OR.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I did not say he can tag you because they might get wet. I am saying that if on his visit it is raining or he sees water on floor and checks to see if any wire got wet then he can tag it for damaged ul material. .
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Ok now we need two code references, one for the above and one for the below



Jim W in Tampa said:
I have seen houses roughed in that did not even have tar paper yet. Technically an inspector could fail it and have heard of some not allowing you to rough in untill window were in. .
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We are going backwards. :grin:
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Just what are you trying to do ? Prove you can have wet nm and get away with it. Only a hack would even try it. Your inspectors must really enjoy your work.
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I'll just take this as you admitting you are wrong. Beacuse you are. :rolleyes:

There is nothing in the NEC to back up your claim. And yes you can have wet NM and "get away with it" although you are not really getting away with anything because it is allowed and it is fine.
 
electricmanscott said:
I'll just take this as you admitting you are wrong. Beacuse you are. :rolleyes:

There is nothing in the NEC to back up your claim. And yes you can have wet NM and "get away with it" although you are not really getting away with anything because it is allowed and it is fine.
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No there is no direct code number to say building must be dry to wire but are other codes an inspector will use. If nothing else then says it not workmanship install.
Where do you get the idea its ok to have wet romex ? Code number ?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
No there is no direct code number to say building must be dry to wire but are other codes an inspector will use. If nothing else then says it not workmanship install.
Where do you get the idea its ok to have wet romex ? Code number ?
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Ohhhhhh "other codes" now your making sense. What are these "other codes" you speak of?

I got the idea from what you posted.

Jim W in Tampa said:
a building may be subject to rainfall while under construction, and water may come in contact with the outer jacket of nonmetallic-sheathed cable. This is not prohibited by the NEC
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As you requested.

334.10 Uses permitted
(A) Type NM
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10 (3)

100. General
Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.


Now can you show me a code reference that allows an inspector to fail a rough inspection beacuse the wiring was done before the building was "dried in" or because the wiring got wet. Those are the two things you said would get you a "red tag".

I'll take this to 50 pages if I have to. :grin:
 
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here is the answer from southwire
"Normally, the NM Cable will not be affected. The only problem that could occur is that the end of the cable be exposed and turned up where water can enter the cable. This is usually not the case.
This is a dry location cable.
NEC Article 100 - Definitions
Location, Dry - A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness.A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
As long as water isn't allowed to enter the cable, this doesn't effect the UL Listing or warranty.


Regards
Paul White
Southwire

This is a typical reply that leaves plenty of room for protection. Notice how he points out that the ENDS are not to get wet. Now if you can tell me how to do this then we have no issue. Just how does only part of the romex get wet and not the ENDS ? But a hack likely only cares about GET R DONE.
You want a direct code number and there is none to cover what a HACK will do about a building that will get wet and will do damage. A sharp inspector will and can stop this kind of problem. A good inspector will always find something you missed if common since won't work with you.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
For what Jim is discussing, I have seen it in the building code. The BO is usually the one who will say something.

I had that happen once before.
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I know that the Residential code at Table 3701.4 does not permit NM as a wiring method in a damp location. If a home under construction can be deemed a damp location, the use of NM would be prohibited (unless and until the building was no longer deemed a damp location). Perhaps this is the "logic" used? :-?:)
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
here is the answer from southwire
"Normally, the NM Cable will not be affected. The only problem that could occur is that the end of the cable be exposed and turned up where water can enter the cable. This is usually not the case.
This is a dry location cable.
NEC Article 100 - Definitions
Location, Dry - A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness.A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
As long as water isn't allowed to enter the cable, this doesn't effect the UL Listing or warranty.


Regards
Paul White
Southwire

This is a typical reply that leaves plenty of room for protection. Notice how he points out that the ENDS are not to get wet. Now if you can tell me how to do this then we have no issue. Just how does only part of the romex get wet and not the ENDS ? But a hack likely only cares about GET R DONE.
You want a direct code number and there is none to cover what a HACK will do about a building that will get wet and will do damage. A sharp inspector will and can stop this kind of problem. A good inspector will always find something you missed if common since won't work with you.
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Jim, nice try. :rolleyes:

Read what YOU posted. he did not say the ends are not to get wet.

Anyway, I win. :grin:
 
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