What 50 amp disconnect should I use for a garage?

[dhalleron]

Shall does not equal Require.

I missed that shall be permitted part. I've been reading the NEC since the 1978 edition. I only read the 1978 edition cover to cover in study hall at school. The other codes I just skim through as needed.

 

[wwhitney]

Shall does not equal Require.

?? "Shall" does equal a requirement. But "shall be permitted" is not a requirement.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[dhalleron]

I think my last question before I bury this dead horse. I think I have most of this straight in my mind as to how I am going to do it.

I have always thought the GEC had to terminate at the first means of disconnect. It would be easier to terminate at the garage panel in this case. The following code article doesn't seem clear to me on exactly where it can terminate. It just says the EGC must be connected to the GEC.

From 2017 NEC because I don't have easy copy and paste capability from the 2008:
(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run
with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

 

[tom baker]

I would back feed a 60 in the MLO panel. You would need a tie down for that breaker. 4 wire feeder with GES to the EG bar that is bonded to the enclosure. Neutral would float.

Yes this is a very common method to backfed

 

[tom baker]

I was told by someone I can't use a wirenut on #6 wire and didn't question it. Now I see on the label for the blue Ideal 454 it is suitable for 1 or 2 #6. But to get picky the code seems to require a terminal or bus and says:
A terminal or bus to which all grounded conductors can be attached by means of pressure connectors shall be permitted
for this purpose.

You are wise to question. Lots of misinformation.
Ask here we all learn

 

[ptonsparky]

?? "Shall" does equal a requirement. But "shall be permitted" is not a requirement.

Cheers, Wayne

Better

 

[ptonsparky]

?? "Shall" does equal a requirement. But "shall be permitted" is not a requirement.

Cheers, Wayne

In context...

 

[LarryFine]

This panel is on the rear wall maybe 20 feet from the door. I'm still thinking I want a disconnect outside.

The disconnect should be outside or nearest the point of entry if inside.

If the panel is not where the feeder enters, you need a disconnect there.

 

[LarryFine]

Don't I need to terminate my ground rod GEC at the disconnect? Or are you saying it could be terminated at the panel? I thought it had to be at the first means of disconnect.

It does, whichever comes first. At the disco or the panel if it's the disco.

 

[LarryFine]

?? "Shall" does equal a requirement. But "shall be permitted" is not a requirement.

Actually, that's one that is a requirement upon the inspector.

"Shall be permitted" means "shall not be prohibited."

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That's the other thing, I wasn't sure about. I don't remember what the older codes said about distance inside the building. This panel is on the rear wall maybe 20 feet from the door. I'm still thinking I want a disconnect outside.

Same as for service conductors....nearest the point of entry of the conductors.

225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.

Note that the 2008 code requires this disconnect to be listed as suitable for use as service equipment. The disconnect you have is not so listed.

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

 

[dhalleron]

Same as for service conductors....nearest the point of entry of the conductors.

Note that the 2008 code requires this disconnect to be listed as suitable for use as service equipment. The disconnect you have is not so listed.

The plot thickens. Thank you. We should have gone with a weatherproof outside main breaker panel and been done with this conversation.

 

[LarryFine]

We should have gone with a weatherproof outside main breaker panel and been done with this conversation.

Or just inside.

 

[dhalleron]

Back to my original post. In a roundabout way, I was trying to ask what disconnect one might use in this case.

I may end up using something like this Siemens EQ 100-Amp 2-Spaces 2-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center. It probably still will need separate terminals to separate the neutrals and grounds, but I'll figure it out.

 

[dhalleron]

Or just inside.

It's tough to bring the feeders to a panel just inside. There is a concrete patio on the side and we brought the feeder to the backside. Would probably cost more in conduit and wire to move the panel closer to the door before we go inside than buying the right disconnect.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Back to my original post. In a roundabout way, I was trying to ask what disconnect one might use in this case.

I may end up using something like this Siemens EQ 100-Amp 2-Spaces 2-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center. It probably still will need separate terminals to separate the neutrals and grounds, but I'll figure it out.

Any disconnect listed as suitable for use as service equipment will ship with the neutral isolated from the enclosure and be shipped with a bonding jumper, typically a green screw that would be installed when you are using it as a service disconnect. It will also have provisions for a field installed equipment grounding bar.

 

[augie47]

You have mentioned "closer to the door" a couple of times. The requirement is form the disconnecting means to be outside or closest the point of entry of the conductors not entry to the building.
If you routed your feeder from outside directly into your panel you can use the backfed breaker as your disconnect.

 

[dhalleron]

I just want to say another thing. Many other forums or especially Facebook groups I visit are much different from my experience here. Other places, there is always that one guy that will call you an idiot for even asking the question. Here, we have talked it through. Some advice was corrected by others and we all got along. I like that. Keep up the good work guys. I'm mostly retired from electric work. Hopefully in another 5 years I'll be retired from all real work and just do what I want to do.

 

[Little Bill]

Don't I need to terminate my ground rod GEC at the disconnect? Or are you saying it could be terminated at the panel? I thought it had to be at the first means of disconnect.

It does, whichever comes first. At the disco or the panel if it's the disco.

I think the OP is confusing the requirements for connecting the GEC vs where the bonding takes place.
The GEC is allowed to connect anywhere from the weatherhead down to the panel. No mention of first means of disconnect.

 

[dhalleron]

You have mentioned "closer to the door" a couple of times. The requirement is form the disconnecting means to be outside or closest the point of entry of the conductors not entry to the building.
If you routed your feeder from outside directly into your panel you can use the backfed breaker as your disconnect.

And yet another learning experience. I thought it meant the fire department had a short distance to travel to turn off the power. So closer to the door was better.