What a bad generator install looks like

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
I don’t think he is switching, just getting more capacity. Natural gas is nowhere near as common in the south as it is in the north. Nearest natural gas line to my house is close to 40 miles away. When installing larger generators in Atlanta, sometimes they would have to upgrade to a larger line and meter from the street.
When we went to install a new generator at the fire station I served at we found that the pressure in the streets line was only end use pressure at about 15 inches of water column. It just couldn't supply enough gas to start the generator. We called the Natural Gas supplier to get them to upgrade the supply on our block to medium distribution pressure, which being a fire house we could force them to do because end use pressure street lines had been declared obsolete and no longer acceptable by the States Public Service Commission 2 decades previous and they had to replace lines to a list of critical loads, such as fire stations, on demand. The local hospital had really made them howl by demanding service to supply a natural gas fueled turbine Alternator set which could run the whole hospital. The Hospital was too far from the fire station for their 4 inch line to benefit us. As we new we were about to move into temporary quarters so the station could be replaced, being too small for modern fire apparatus and worn out, we asked if the generator could be started on propane and then run on the natural gas supply. Their engineers came up with something they liked better. They offered to run a six inch line off of the much smaller street line, 2 inches I think, to use the length of the 6 inch as a reservoir of sorts to provide enough natural gas for starting our new 100 KVA Engine Alternator set. That was never installed because we moved. We moved the Engine Alternator Set a block away to the temporary station and ran it on Propane. When the new fire station went in a diesel generator was installed so as to standardized with the other stations in the county.

A couple of months after the new NG or LPG set arrived, while they were hemming and hawing about how to do the temporary service, while the station move was being scheduled. It was still sitting on it's shipping pallet when a severe ice storm struck. The power went out just after the aerial ladder truck was dispatched for a response to a structure fire. Our World War 2 civil defense generator, being unhappy about being replaced I suppose, failed to start for the first time in 50 years. The crew pulled the door release which the rolling door installers had installed in the wrong end of the pull bar to the overhead chain drive socket. When the bar was released it fell down with its chain end hanging down like an aircraft landing hook. The back rail of the rear mount aerial's platform caught the pull bar and pulled the door down on the truck as it was going out the door. Ball bearings from the rollers flew everywhere. Since I was assigned to the engine, which was not due to respond on that call, I got to help remove the wreckage of the door and clean up the ball bearings. I did my share and more, using a magnet taken from a DC motor that was sitting in my work van, without slipping and falling. I had pulled ice cleats over my boots which kept me from actually walking on the ball bearings. Several of the guys did fall and 2 got injured badly enough to be transported to the hospital with severe sprains and 1 broken ankle.

Next morning I called the electrical supply house I was in the habit of using and ordered the bugs, insulating pads, and wires to connect the new generator. The propane company came through with a 500 pound propane tank and the temporary piping. I wired that Cummins into the existing Onan transfer switch by bugging on to the existing supply conductors from the old generator, connected the control wires, and threw the switch to automatic. It started right up and powered the station for the next ten days while crews from Quebec Hydro and the Tennessee Valley Authority helped put the areas grid back together.

Tom Horne
 

Strombea

Senior Member
Another EC sold this customer a 22kw air cooled standby generator 2/yrs ago. He called me a little over a year ago stating that every time the power went out, the generator breaker would trip.

Load calc came in at 50kw. They provided no load shedding at all. The wiring is pretty terrible as well. The lugs in the generator had no torque; I was able to pull the cables directly out of the lugs. The battery cables were the same way and completely corroded.

I sold him a 60kw, ordered in June 2022, it came in Monday this week. Removed the old generator yesterday and poured the pad for the 60kw today. I did offer to install enough load shedding devices to keep the 22kw, he insisted he wanted the whole house on at all times. He now needs a larger LP tank and fuel line as well.

I assume also this was inspected as the power company would’ve required it to re-energize the service. That inspector was fired a few months ago for letting stuff like this go.

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I would agree that the wiring and parts could've been done way better. But I do a lot of generacs and I refuse to install anything bigger than 24KW. A lot of the competitors quote bigger generators but NO normal households use everything at the same time. If you don't have power and you think that's the best time to cook a pizza and use all 4 burners plus the broiler, and make sure AC is on while you heat up the sauna...etc. then you have some first world problems. I have always been able to logically talk people into 10-18kw based on needing water and lights, and self load shedding by waiting till the pizza is done to turn on the AC. Etc.

Also most electricians are not telling people about gas consumption so when you're on propane and you're using 10gal per hour as opposed to 4 gal per hour that's a big deal, especially when your just watching TV and there is no way to idle it down. Self load shedding is a great way to have a smaller generator and still use everything you need.
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
10gal per hour as opposed to 4 gal per hour that's a big deal, especially when your just watching TV and there is no way to idle it down
I was just starting to look at small inverter generators just for that reason. Just enough to run some lights, the refrigerator, the freezer, and the boiler. If I need to do more I can just fire up one of the larger generators. If the power ever goes out for a long time, I don't want to be burning up all my fuel
 

Birken Vogt

Senior Member
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I refuse to install anything bigger than 24KW
We have the opposite problem, everybody wants to put a cheap air cooled in a large mansion. And then we come around and have problems like this thread. High class mansions should have a high class genset to go along with it, not the same as the mobile home across town. Water cooled are quiet and the #1 thing is, don't depend on the owner to check the oil daily when there is a weeklong storm if 1800 RPM. After some disaster, many customers have told me "nobody told me there was anything better". Just a fly by night ceiling fan hanger bought whatever was big and cheap at the supply house.

Some customers are out of town for weeks at a time, etc. also.

So always offer your customers liquid cooled even if it is only 24 kw. Some of them will accept it if they know about it.

24 kw LC does not use any more or less gas than 24 kw AC.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
I would agree that the wiring and parts could've been done way better. But I do a lot of generacs and I refuse to install anything bigger than 24KW. A lot of the competitors quote bigger generators but NO normal households use everything at the same time. If you don't have power and you think that's the best time to cook a pizza and use all 4 burners plus the broiler, and make sure AC is on while you heat up the sauna...etc. then you have some first world problems. I have always been able to logically talk people into 10-18kw based on needing water and lights, and self load shedding by waiting till the pizza is done to turn on the AC. Etc.

Also most electricians are not telling people about gas consumption so when you're on propane and you're using 10gal per hour as opposed to 4 gal per hour that's a big deal, especially when your just watching TV and there is no way to idle it down. Self load shedding is a great way to have a smaller generator and still use everything you need.

I offered the load shed option, he didn’t want it. This customer is also at the top end of ultra-high net worth and the cost was inconsequential.

We measured load during the outage after the hurricane week before last (we lost power for 6 days) and it was at 120A with some of the hvac and a few lights on; if they turn everything on it should easily exceed 200A. The load Calc is 51kw.

This generator uses <8 gal/hr of LP under full load.
 
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