What about garbage disposals and dishwashers?

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iwirehouses

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If cord and plug, do these have to be gfci protected? I see nothing in the NEC about GFCI protection on disposals and dishwashers, so I assume no. But books that I have read have given me both yes and no. When asking an electrician, he said if its not GFCI protected, then use a single plug instead of a duplex.
 
GFCI protection is required only on countertops in residential kitchens.

Under the sink is not countertop. Put a quad in there if you want to. :)
 
iwirehouses said:
If cord and plug, do these have to be gfci protected? I see nothing in the NEC about GFCI protection on disposals and dishwashers, so I assume no.
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Your assumption is correct...if they are not plugged in on the countertop or other area noted in 210.52(B), - plugging them in on the counter would probably create a violation.


iwirehouses said:
But books that I have read have given me both yes and no.
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What kind of books are you reading?
 
Ask your electrician for a reference on why it must be a single receptacle rather than a duplex if you don't have it GFCI-protected. I think he's mixing up code sections. The "single receptacle" rule applies as an exception to GFCI requirements in other locations (e.g., garages, unfinished basements)where an appliance that is unlikely to be moved can be served by a non-GFCI receptacle (e.g., a fridge). If you install a duplex receptacle in such a situation, both receptacles have to have these kind of appliances plugged into them for the exception to apply. If there's only one appliance, the receptacle must be a single.

There is no exception to the requirement that residential kitchen countertop receptacles have GFCI protection, nor is there a requirement for GFCI protection for receptacles under sinks, whether they be single, duplex, quad, or whatever. I install receptacles under sinks for disposals and dishwashers all the time, and I've never put GFCI protection on them. No inspector has ever said a word to me about it.
 
iwirehouses said:
If cord and plug, do these have to be gfci protected? I see nothing in the NEC about GFCI protection on disposals and dishwashers, so I assume no. But books that I have read have given me both yes and no. When asking an electrician, he said if its not GFCI protected, then use a single plug instead of a duplex.
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If you want to you can but it is not required.Is an inspector telling you to do this ? From a safety point i can see a small risk in that they both have water and human contact.Should the ground fail there could be a shock hazard.Personally i hard wire them.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
If you want to you can but it is not required.Is an inspector telling you to do this ? From a safety point i can see a small risk in that they both have water and human contact.Should the ground fail there could be a shock hazard.Personally i hard wire them.
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How is hardwiring them any safer? Would the ground be less likely to fail in a hardwired appliance?
 
infinity said:
How is hardwiring them any safer? Would the ground be less likely to fail in a hardwired appliance?
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Trevor I do not have anything to support this but IMO the NEC does consider the EGC of cord and plug equipment more likely to fail.

IMO that is why we do not have GFCI requirements for hardwired pool pumps, kitchen appliances etc.

Have you noticed it always seems to be the ground pin that breaks off 3 wire molded plugs?
 
Have you noticed it always seems to be the ground pin that breaks off 3 wire molded plugs?
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It's true that the ground pin is usually the first to go. This is very true of extension cords, but how often is a plug on a garbage disposal removed and reinserted?
 
infinity said:
It's true that the ground pin is usually the first to go. This is very true of extension cords, but how often is a plug on a garbage disposal removed and reinserted?
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And it really is safer to the homeowner to beable to have a sure disconnect right there when attempting to retrieve something from the disposer IMHO.
 
bikeindy said:
And it really is safer to the homeowner to be able to have a sure disconnect right there when attempting to retrieve something from the disposer IMHO.
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In either case, some means of disconnect is required. Be it a switch in the hardwired setup, or the cord and plug connection in the other.

As I finished typing that, it occured to me the switch over the counter would be a disconnecting means, and that you're saying the cord and plug way is a touch safer in terms of disconnection; I would agree with that too. :)

I'd agree with Trevor's principle that disposals' cords are rarely used, so do not encounter the same wear. So then the question moves on to, is a perfectly intact hardwired grounding connection superior to a perfectly intact cord-and-plug-connected grounding connection?

I'd say a hardwired connection could carry more fault current, but that the cord-and-plug connection carries enough fault current that the gains are insignificant, IMO.
 
IMO it is not about one carrying more fault current than another.

If I recall the reason the GFCI requirement was added for commeical kithen outlets had to do with broken EGCs not how much fault current the EGCs could carry if intact.

And while I agree a disposal outlet would get little use I can't see how the NEC could single out which get a lot of use and which don't.
 
infinity said:
It's true that the ground pin is usually the first to go. This is very true of extension cords, but how often is a plug on a garbage disposal removed and reinserted?
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And if it does break will they stop using what still works ?How many extension cords keep being used ?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Is the switch not enough ?
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Sure. and I suppose in most cases it works out great. but when you work on a lawn mower they tell you to take off the spark plug wire. And in industrial situations with equipment you have to lock them out. I just like the extra measure of protection to pull the plug and when that sucker quits on you the plumber is gonna love you, so easy to move the cord over from the disposer or put a new one on before install.
 
The electrician who told me about the "single plug if not gfci protected" rule is actually an old timer master electrician. He still takes code classes but hasn't done jobs in a while. He's moved on to the point where he knows what hes doing, he does things as safe as possible, and what he thinks is right. You know those guys right? Gotta love em. Regardless, here's another one for ya. I'm not gonna do it, but it'd be perfectly ok to plug the disposal and dishwasher into one duplex receptacle, provided it was split with 2 dedicated 15 amp circuits, right? Again, the old timer electrician told me he dosn't like it cause if the cords get switched, the breakers no longer correspond to the appliance. Also, is it ok to share the neutral on this?
 
iwirehouses said:
The electrician who told me about the "single plug if not gfci protected" rule is actually an old timer master electrician. He still takes code classes but hasn't done jobs in a while. He's moved on to the point where he knows what hes doing, he does things as safe as possible, and what he thinks is right. You know those guys right? Gotta love em. Regardless, here's another one for ya. I'm not gonna do it, but it'd be perfectly ok to plug the disposal and dishwasher into one duplex receptacle, provided it was split with 2 dedicated 15 amp circuits, right? Again, the old timer electrician told me he dosn't like it cause if the cords get switched, the breakers no longer correspond to the appliance. Also, is it ok to share the neutral on this?
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Well half of your receptacle would have to be switched for the disposer and the other always hot for the dishwasher. I wouldn't do this and in a lot of my installs it would make it much more difficult.
 
iwirehouses said:
I'm not gonna do it, but it'd be perfectly ok to plug the disposal and dishwasher into one duplex receptacle, provided it was split with 2 dedicated 15 amp circuits, right?
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Whoever originally wired all the houses in my FL development back in the late 80's did'em all this way, but on 20A w/2-pole breaker. Backstabbed the whole development and a lot of'em are starting to burn up now with faucets/sinks starting to leak and water dribbling down inside the sink base.
 
bikeindy said:
Sure. and I suppose in most cases it works out great. but when you work on a lawn mower they tell you to take off the spark plug wire. And in industrial situations with equipment you have to lock them out. I just like the extra measure of protection to pull the plug and when that sucker quits on you the plumber is gonna love you, so easy to move the cord over from the disposer or put a new one on before install.
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If we stop using switches for disconnects life will be getting rough.If that switch is not enough for the plumber perhaps he should turn all breakers off including the main and have the poco cut the drop free.
 
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