what am i missing with generator inlet label?

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Portable Generator Inlet Labeling

Portable Generator Inlet Labeling

bullheimer said:
i just got a correction to put a LABEL on a stinkin gen set input recept. are you kidding me? bonded or floating neutral system? does it MATTER? The recept has FOUR wires in it no matter what so who the hell cares? i think this is another PANT LOAD!

2014 NEC 702 .7 -(C)

Where a power inlet is used for a temporary connection to a portable generator, a warning sign shall be placed near the inlet to indicate the type of derived system that the system is capable of based on the wiring of the transfer equipment. The sign shall display one of the following warnings: WARNING FOR CONNECTION OF A SEPARATELY DERIVED (BONDED NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY or WARNING FOR CONNECTION OF A NONSEPARATELY DERIVED (FLOATING NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY

All i see this is another way for the state to get more money out of me, for Trip Fees. No matter what the system is an Interlock is going to keep from backfeeding either one of them. iF they are worried about somebody not knowing if they are feeding a sub or a main panel, then why don't they require the label to say THAT instead of this BS about bonded or floating Ns?

RANTING!!!:rant::rant::rant:
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Two requirements are at play here.

1) The first of which you mentioned above is the new requirement in the 2014 NEC NEC 702 .7(C) that requires you to label the portable generator connection inlet based upon the way in which you installed and wired the transfer equipment. This requirement has existed in the UL "White Book" for a number of years, the NEC was finally updated to the same. The required label MUST also be fully compatable with 2014 NEC 110.21(B).

2) The second requirement effective 01/01/2015 comes from the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Commission) that requires ALL portable generators 15Kw and smaller sold in the U.S. to have ALL power outlets GFCI protected. This requires the neutral to be bonded to the frame.

While you can technically remove the neutral-frame bond and create an un-bonded "Non-Separately Derived" generator, given that you are removing a "required" safety device from a consumer product this is in MHO a very unwise decision. Before proceeding in this manner you should seek legal advice from a competent attorney.

Given the two requirements noted above, as of 01/01/2015 our policy regarding portable generator inlets and transfer switches is that we will ONLY install them in the "Bonded Neutral/Separately Derived System" configuration in a manner that is fully compliant with the two requirements noted above. This will also require that you drive a separate ground rod at the generator connection location.
 
Radioman91 said:
Two requirements are at play here.

1) The first of which you mentioned above is the new requirement in the 2014 NEC NEC 702 .7(C) that requires you to label the portable generator connection inlet based upon the way in which you installed and wired the transfer equipment. This requirement has existed in the UL "White Book" for a number of years, the NEC was finally updated to the same. The required label MUST also be fully compatable with 2014 NEC 110.21(B).

2) The second requirement effective 01/01/2015 comes from the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Commission) that requires ALL portable generators 15Kw and smaller sold in the U.S. to have ALL power outlets GFCI protected. This requires the neutral to be bonded to the frame.

While you can technically remove the neutral-frame bond and create an un-bonded "Non-Separately Derived" generator, given that you are removing a "required" safety device from a consumer product this is in MHO a very unwise decision. Before proceeding in this manner you should seek legal advice from a competent attorney.

Given the two requirements noted above, as of 01/01/2015 our policy regarding portable generator inlets and transfer switches is that we will ONLY install them in the "Bonded Neutral/Separately Derived System" configuration in a manner that is fully compliant with the two requirements noted above. This will also require that you drive a separate ground rod at the generator connection location.
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As a practical matter how do you achieve this? Are you saying that you are installing switched neutral transfer switches in all cases?
 
dkidd said:
Since it will be outdoors, we are really looking for engraved plastic at a minimum.
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Our state rules allow us to to printed adhesive labels, such as a P-Touch. I have P-Touch labels installed in 2008 outside on a generator and they have not faded. Of course this is in Seattle so factor in the cloudy weather
 
thanks for that link Goldstar. i think i'm done with generators. i get one call a year at best. who needs them?
 
bullheimer said:
thanks for that link Goldstar. i think i'm done with generators. i get one call a year at best. who needs them?
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I'm with you. I don't look for the gen-set business. If it happens to come my way I take it. Otherwise, it seems to be a cut-throat business in my area. I used to get a fair amount of $$$. Now other EC's are beating my prices by thousands of $$$. They're going in with low #'s hoping to get the maintenance business after-market. They can have it IMHO.
 
texie said:
As a practical matter how do you achieve this? Are you saying that you are installing switched neutral transfer switches in all cases?
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Yes, that is exactly our policy since 01/01/2015. For residential installations we currently ONLY install portable generator connections and transfer switches in the "Separately Derived/Bonded Neutral" configuration. This will require the use of a 3 pole switched neutral transfer switch in ALL applications.

The use of a portable generator in a residential application with an un-bonded neutral simply presents too many hazards and liabilities.
 
bullheimer said:
thanks for that link Goldstar. i think i'm done with generators. i get one call a year at best. who needs them?
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You just got the painful part done.

Codes change all the time. My first code book weighed about an ounce or two with big font. Now it's many pounds and I need reading glasses (insert old person joke here).

What makes everyone professionals is the ability to roll with the changes, solve problems, know what's coming and produce an equitable, compliant built environment.

So you spend the time, effort and money to make sure all that can happen, and now you want out?
 
i was never in. i've run yellow page ads saying 'Generators Installed' promenently, five years ago, and gotten like one call and no work, in a whole year. and that was BEFORE lowes and HD put banners across the tops of their buildings. and BEFORE Generac required you to jump thru hoops to become a dealer. right now i have to buy the generator from them OUTRIGHT to install it. as for the maintenance, what, a couple a hundies for an oil change? that would be fine but if it comes to anything else, i'd be lost. i haven't gone to their schools, and i dont plan to. i know, its unbelievable to me that with all the wind blowing all the trees and lines down around here, i NEVER get generator calls, so it aint worth the time. add in a few new signs = corrections = $45 trip fee, and i don't need it. and don't forget the hour or two i will waste (usually two because these guys all live in the stix) for the Free Estimate :rant: and it is my pleasure to just tell people to call someone else. and i am saying this as someone who is dirt poor.
 
The company I work for makes power inlet boxes as well as 2 and 3 pole manual transfer switches (120/240v single phase) and we supply those stickers - both the non-SDS and SDS with every product that includes a power inlet. I would guess only a tiny percentage of the installs even use these stickers, as we receive very little feedback or communications regarding them. However a few inspectors will notice them or recite the NEC 702.7 B (we have even had to send a few signs where an inspector requires 702.7 (A) to indicate the type and location of the generator even though it is clearly meant for automatic systems).


A few things I've noticed in the thread that I wanted to comment on:


1) UL 2201 is a PRIVATE standard and is not an ANSI standard, therefore it's nothing more than a recommendation. Every attempt for UL 2201 becoming an ANSI national standard has been voted down.

The CPSC is part of the CMP for the UL 2201 private standard, but because the standard is private it simply does not apply to the majority of the U.S.
There are some areas from my experience that use it as a guide and there may be a few areas that have written in the entire UL White Book or UL 2201 into their local codes (speculation)

2) Just last year in 2015, the PGMA (Portable Generator Manufacturers' Association) received the ANSI standard on portable generators, called G300.
http://www.pgmaonline.com/pdf/ANSI_PGMA_G300_2015.pdf

Although G300 is now the national ANSI standard for portable generators, to my knowledge no generators are listed to this standard yet. They don't have to be listed to G300 because the NEC does not require it. It will probably take several years for that to happen. * G300 does NOT require any particular bonding or floating configuration. Therefore the only requirement that exists to require the grounding of the neutral in the portable generator is by OSHA on an OSHA jobsite.


Lastly, I am curious as to why people feel that bonded neutral generators are so much safer to use in the field versus floating neutral generators. The argument for a floating neutral generator being safer, would be there can't be a ground fault.
(I'm aware of the addition 445.20 to the 2014 NEC regarding the GFCI's on generators and the exceptions to that rule.)

If we are NOT on an OSHA jobsite, and are powering tools or equipment using cord and plug devices from the generator, without connecting to premises wiring or a transfer switch, what benefits of bonding the neutral are there that outweigh the benefits of avoiding a ground fault altogether using a floating neutral generator? If anyone has any opinions on this I'd be very thankful to hear them.
 
shortcircuit2 said:
If the neutral isn't bonded somewhere, fault current to ground can't find a path to trip overcurrent protection. That's the problem.
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There is no fault current with the first ground fault, you simply end up with a grounded system, a second ground fault will yield fault current. Use of GFCI's will still detect the abnormal situation and open the circuit.

If you end up connecting to a premises wiring system - it should have grounding electrode(s) and possibly even a grounded service conductor that ultimately connects to a large network of electrodes through the POCO MGN. In such cases the premises wiring system's main or system bonding jumper ends up providing the bonding/grounding for this generator source and it becomes a grounded system.

If you just use the genset as an isolated ungrounded system it is quite safe that way.
 
This is freakin rediculous! I got a cple jobs coming up residential where I'm installing mechanical interlocks on their service entrance panels outside, simple and cheaper then a gen subpanel. I'll make the stupid stickers with my ptouch like I've done before, but now I read this crap and its like everyone has a different opinion, bonded or floating. I really don't think it matters. Seems like poeple think its wrong if you go one way or the other. Its crazy, and its only a portable generator. Every three years it gets crazier! LOL
 
This thread is almost 5 years old so I think it's time to close it

Roger
 
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