What defines the difference between an electrical tester or an indicator?
- Thread starter ELA
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wptski
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- Warren, MI
ELA is trying to get your own opinion without making a reference to NEC or UL about what a tester or indicator is. You guys went exactly where he asked not to go on this thread!
wptski said:ELA is trying to get your own opinion without making a reference to NEC or UL about what a tester or indicator is. You guys went exactly where he asked not to go on this thread!
And based on the following quote, what/whose opinion was less than creditable?
ELA said:
I don't see where the NEC, UL, ETL, CSA, or anything else was specifically mentioned as to being off limits, do you?
Roger
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ELA
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Test Engineer
roger said:It seems that it was possibly a set up for a planned retaliation, of course I could be wrong.
Roger
Here we go again. That sort of response is very discouraging Roger.
Of course you do not know me. I am a fair person and enjoy learning from others.
I hestitate to state the phrase "you are wrong" since it can seem a negative connotation. But in this case it you made it a little personal and I have to say outright that you are dead wrong. (Yes I did see the wink emoticon)
My error was in trying to preface upfront that I wanted opinions only I guess? I am certainly not perfect. All I wanted was some interesting conversation.
A few responses since my last negative one have been great and allowed me to see that my definition was somewhat unique to me. I have gotten a very broad range of responses and that was interesting to read, at least for me.
It has already demostrated to me that there is probably no real clear or definitive answer.
So thanks to those of you willing to communicate without judgement
Maybe so, but it's they way I see it.ELA said:
I am glad that is the case, it is the same for myself and I would guess it would describe most of the members here.ELA said:
Thank you, I am actually glad that I am wrong.ELA said:
Please take a little advice, try to be more specific as to what you are wanting when asking a question. Look at your post as a first time visitor and tell me why a reference to the NEC or UL should not have been brought to the party by a long time member, first time poster, moderator, or anyone else.
And one persons opinion was that UL would be a possibility for a definition.ELA said:
Very good, so quit complaining.ELA said:
You're welcome.ELA said:
Roger
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Yes, I do. ELA was asking for your opinion, not NEC, UL, ETL, CSA or anything else. An answer that doesn't include a NEC code paragraph, UL number, etc. Instead of providing somebody else's opinion to the question, provide your own. It was clear to me.roger said:
- Location
- Massachusetts
wptski said:
And my personal opinion was that UL would be a good place to look.
Further I have a pretty good idea what promoted this thread which was why I was quick to mention UL.
Arc Fault Breaker problem
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
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- EE
081011-0548 EST
ELA:
From dictionary.com
tester --- a person or thing that tests
test ---
1. the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
2. the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.
3. a particular process or method for trying or assessing.
4. a set of questions, problems, or the like, used as a means of evaluating the abilities, aptitudes, skills, or performance of an individual or group; examination.
indicator ---
1. a person or thing that indicates.
2. a pointing or directing device, as a pointer on the dial of an instrument to show pressure, temperature, speed, volume, or the like.
3. an instrument that indicates the condition of a machine or the like.
4. an instrument for measuring and recording variations of pressure in the cylinder of an engine.
indicate ---
3. to show, as by measuring or recording; make known: The thermometer indicates air temperature.
gage ---
American Heritage
2. An instrument for measuring or testing.
I would tend to agree with your suggested definitions in post #1.
I would describe an indicator as --- a device that displays an output from an input.
And a tester as --- a device that produces an evaluation based on an input or inputs. A tester would include an indicator or indicators.
We have been involved with a number of different machines that I would classify as testers, but these would include indicators as part of the tester.
Some generic names for these are:
Transfer Case Test Machine. This was referred to as a test machine, and the machine ran a number of different tests --- ramped speed under torque load for operator to monitor noise, actuated clutch to verify torque capability, monitored magnetic sensor outputs, measured clutch current, measured magnetic sensor minimum and maximum current. Various torques were applied during the cycle. So this machine had controlled inputs and monitored outputs. This machine was at Dana Columbia Missouri.
I include evaluation, meaning some sort of limits or criteria, as part of the definition for a tester. So a Simpson 260 meter is an indicator and becomes a tester when you include the person using it.
Pinion shim and case stations are more in the indicator category. But one is certainly applying motions and forces to get the measurements. I have never heard anyone call these a tester. These are really a part of the manufacturing operation and I call them gages. Whereas the transfer case test machine was not used to build the part but only to verify it.
In the shim stations there is a test function when the operator picks the indicated shim and then puts this in a shim verifier to confirm that the shim is correct relative to what was called for.
Pinion flange composite runout gages are also an indicator type of device, but generally called a tester or gage. These will include evaluation.
We built some ABS test machines (ABS - automatic braking system --- anti skid) and these were called testers. Again these monitored the product and were not used to build the part. Whereas pin shim, pinion preload adjust, and case shim stations use measurements to build the part.
So maybe I could define an indicator as a device that displays an output in response to an input signal. This would include LEDs as a binary indicator, on-off.
A tester might be a device that evaluates an input and includes indicators. This might or might not include some stimuli to the item being tested.
It seems useful to have a third category for the machines using indicators and testers to build a part. An automatic balancing machine would fit in this category where it measures the unbalance (testing function), evaluates this, then commands a CNC machine to remove a given amount of material in a given location.
.
ELA:
From dictionary.com
tester --- a person or thing that tests
test ---
1. the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
2. the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.
3. a particular process or method for trying or assessing.
4. a set of questions, problems, or the like, used as a means of evaluating the abilities, aptitudes, skills, or performance of an individual or group; examination.
indicator ---
1. a person or thing that indicates.
2. a pointing or directing device, as a pointer on the dial of an instrument to show pressure, temperature, speed, volume, or the like.
3. an instrument that indicates the condition of a machine or the like.
4. an instrument for measuring and recording variations of pressure in the cylinder of an engine.
indicate ---
3. to show, as by measuring or recording; make known: The thermometer indicates air temperature.
gage ---
American Heritage
2. An instrument for measuring or testing.
I would tend to agree with your suggested definitions in post #1.
I would describe an indicator as --- a device that displays an output from an input.
And a tester as --- a device that produces an evaluation based on an input or inputs. A tester would include an indicator or indicators.
We have been involved with a number of different machines that I would classify as testers, but these would include indicators as part of the tester.
Some generic names for these are:
Transfer Case Test Machine. This was referred to as a test machine, and the machine ran a number of different tests --- ramped speed under torque load for operator to monitor noise, actuated clutch to verify torque capability, monitored magnetic sensor outputs, measured clutch current, measured magnetic sensor minimum and maximum current. Various torques were applied during the cycle. So this machine had controlled inputs and monitored outputs. This machine was at Dana Columbia Missouri.
I include evaluation, meaning some sort of limits or criteria, as part of the definition for a tester. So a Simpson 260 meter is an indicator and becomes a tester when you include the person using it.
Pinion shim and case stations are more in the indicator category. But one is certainly applying motions and forces to get the measurements. I have never heard anyone call these a tester. These are really a part of the manufacturing operation and I call them gages. Whereas the transfer case test machine was not used to build the part but only to verify it.
In the shim stations there is a test function when the operator picks the indicated shim and then puts this in a shim verifier to confirm that the shim is correct relative to what was called for.
Pinion flange composite runout gages are also an indicator type of device, but generally called a tester or gage. These will include evaluation.
We built some ABS test machines (ABS - automatic braking system --- anti skid) and these were called testers. Again these monitored the product and were not used to build the part. Whereas pin shim, pinion preload adjust, and case shim stations use measurements to build the part.
So maybe I could define an indicator as a device that displays an output in response to an input signal. This would include LEDs as a binary indicator, on-off.
A tester might be a device that evaluates an input and includes indicators. This might or might not include some stimuli to the item being tested.
It seems useful to have a third category for the machines using indicators and testers to build a part. An automatic balancing machine would fit in this category where it measures the unbalance (testing function), evaluates this, then commands a CNC machine to remove a given amount of material in a given location.
.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
I can think Outside the Box or in this case, Outside the Book.roger said:That's because you're special.
Roger
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
gar:
So you'd call a Simpson 260 an indicator and becomes a tester when a person uses it which would include DMMs. What about a Volt-Con or Wiggy? A Fluke T+ Pro which has a LED scale compared to a Volt-Con/Wiggy yet has a digital output also. All need a person to use/operate it.
So you'd call a Simpson 260 an indicator and becomes a tester when a person uses it which would include DMMs. What about a Volt-Con or Wiggy? A Fluke T+ Pro which has a LED scale compared to a Volt-Con/Wiggy yet has a digital output also. All need a person to use/operate it.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
I'm sure it came from the AFCI thread too as anytime a AFCI tester is mention, a link to that same article is posted. The intent was to try to get a opinion without referencing the same article but I guess that some are unable or just don't care to form their own opinion!iwire said:
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
081011-0951 EST
Bill:
I think the Simpson 260 or any other indicator is just an indicator. If you combine the indicator into a system that makes a decision based on the output of the indicator, then the system becomes a tester, but the indicator alone is not the tester.
If I have an LVDT system that measures the diameter of rollers and based on some criteria sorts them into bins, then I have a tester. In this system no human is involved. The LVDT is an indicator when viewed by itself, and only becomes a part of a test system when combined with other components.
I believe all these are indicators until you combine them with something else:
"What about a Volt-Con or Wiggy? A Fluke T+ Pro which has a LED scale compared to a Volt-Con/Wiggy yet has a digital output also."
.
Bill:
I think the Simpson 260 or any other indicator is just an indicator. If you combine the indicator into a system that makes a decision based on the output of the indicator, then the system becomes a tester, but the indicator alone is not the tester.
If I have an LVDT system that measures the diameter of rollers and based on some criteria sorts them into bins, then I have a tester. In this system no human is involved. The LVDT is an indicator when viewed by itself, and only becomes a part of a test system when combined with other components.
I believe all these are indicators until you combine them with something else:
"What about a Volt-Con or Wiggy? A Fluke T+ Pro which has a LED scale compared to a Volt-Con/Wiggy yet has a digital output also."
.
- Location
- Massachusetts
wptski said:
Thats me, I never had an original idea in my life. :roll:
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
Why all the passive aggressiveness in here?
Everything that we learn in society is built upon what we've learned in the past.
Is a debate on the best way to ride a bicycle without referencing how we've ridden bicycles in the past going to do us any good?
wptski said:
Everything that we learn in society is built upon what we've learned in the past.
Is a debate on the best way to ride a bicycle without referencing how we've ridden bicycles in the past going to do us any good?
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
This isn't about learning, it's about defining two units on your own and not using some other person's words as a answer. Thinking on your own.jaylectricity said:
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
gar:
When the shim selector calls out the proper shim and the operator places the shim in a gage which lites a red/green(if I remember correctly), isn't that a indicator that made a decision from a input?
When the shim selector calls out the proper shim and the operator places the shim in a gage which lites a red/green(if I remember correctly), isn't that a indicator that made a decision from a input?
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
wptski said:
I have never visited this site with the intention of not learning. So it is about learning.
My opinion in regards to electricity:
Tester is something that takes information in the form of voltage, amps, ohms, etc and turns it into data in the form of a light, a needle, a dial, a graph, computer file, etc.
An indicator is that data in the form of a light, a needle, a dial, a graph, computer file, etc.
- Location
- Massachusetts
IMO.
An entire unit, like the Simpson 260 is a "Tester"
The pointers on it, be it the pointers on the knobs or the pointer under the plastic are "Indicators"
An entire unit, like the Simpson 260 is a "Tester"
The pointers on it, be it the pointers on the knobs or the pointer under the plastic are "Indicators"
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