What If ?

Local Electrician · Mar 29, 2009

220/221 said:
I will go against the grain.

Ever hear the term "mind your own business"? There's a reason for that saying. I think it's best to focus on your business.
.

We'll if we both advertise in the same market. Then it could be cosidered my bussiness.
Or may be their competing against a fellow electrician

The major majority say's to report them.

jrannis · Mar 29, 2009

Local Electrician said:
You have a friend of 5 years that is licensed for residential only.
But you have to bid against them all the time on commercial jobs. And they seem to be charging almost half what I would charge.
And they don't get permits.:-?

What else does your friend do to you?

Local Electrician · Mar 29, 2009

jrannis said:
What else does your friend do to you?

PHP:

As I am sitting here thinking about it.
May be, I just thought he was a friend.

ceb58 · Mar 29, 2009

Local Electrician said:
As I am sitting here thinking about it.
May be, I just thought he was a friend.

As I said.

He must not be that good of a friend if he is has his hand in your wallet all the time.

MarkyMarkNC · Mar 29, 2009

It is unlikely your friend will get into major trouble if you turn him in. Verbal warning, reprimand, or probation are the likely outcomes.

Meanwhile, those of us who took the time to study for and pass the test, pay the proper fees, and take the proper continuing education courses, will have one less competitor who is skirting the system.

Dnkldorf · Mar 29, 2009

I dunno about this, but:

If he is a friend, why not salvage this, talk to him about teaming up in some fashion, and both of you make money together?

It would be a shame if neither of you made any money.

If he is taken out of the equation, is someone else going to come along and under bid you?

If so, all your efforts would be for what?

charlie · Mar 29, 2009

Back on track

Back on track

nakulak said:
. . . I'm a gun toting hillbilly, . .

We could be friends.

MarkyMarkNC said:
It is unlikely your friend will get into major trouble if you turn him in. Verbal warning, reprimand, or probation are the likely outcomes.

Meanwhile, those of us who took the time to study for and pass the test, pay the proper fees, and take the proper continuing education courses, will have one less competitor who is skirting the system.

Until your post, I was about to close this thread. I believe it is back on track. :smile:

roger · Mar 29, 2009

Dnkldorf said:
If he is a friend, why not salvage this, talk to him about teaming up in some fashion, and both of you make money together?

The only way this could happen in NC is if the illegal operator became an employee of the OP.

Dnkldorf said:
If he is taken out of the equation, is someone else going to come along and under bid you?

I would say it is very possible, but if all the players are equal in qualifications, it would be a little easier to swallow.

The bottom line is, he is operating illegally and that causes problems across the board.

Roger

Dnkldorf · Mar 29, 2009

roger said:
The only way this could happen in NC is if the illegal operator became an employee of the OP.

Who's illegal? I read the OP as his friend is licensed, but only at residential.

NC does not allow one company to merge with another to form a bigger better company?

No lie?

The bottom line is, he is operating illegally and that causes problems across the board.

Roger

I agree, but sometimes you really have to think about how much energy you want to spend fighting a battle, that in the end, get's you nowhere.

roger · Mar 29, 2009

Dnkldorf said:
Who's illegal? I read the OP as his friend is licensed, but only at residential.

Correct, and the work he is beating to OP out of is above his license limits, so in short, he is doing these jobs illegally

Dnkldorf said:
NC does not allow one company to merge with another to form a bigger better company?
No lie?

Yes they could merge as a Joint Venture, but why would the OP want to? Besides the expense of setting up the JV the OP probably doesn't need a partner since he would have to be the sole qualifier.

Dnkldorf said:
Iagree, but sometimes you really have to think about how much energy you want to spend fighting a battle, that in the end, get's you nowhere.

As I posted earlier, it is not very hard to report this individual in NC.

Roger

ceb58 · Mar 29, 2009

roger said:
I would say it is very possible, but if all the players are equal in qualifications, it would be a little easier to swallow.

The bottom line is, he is operating illegally and that causes problems across the board.

Roger

I could not agree more, Roger. If I go bidding against some one that is on an equal level and I lose, so be it. I may need to back up and see where I can be more competitive. I have had contractors that I work for ask me to bid jobs that I know will exceed the $$ limet on my license. It hurts but I turn it down. I then give the plans to a Friend that can do the job. He in turn throws me work that is really to small for him to do. It work for both of us and no one is doing any thing illegal.

K8MHZ · Mar 29, 2009

I am a little concerned about what I see to be a double standard.

OP is concerned about friendship and is hesitant to impede the work done by what is, in essence, and illegal operator.

So called 'friend' of the OP does not seem to be concerned one bit about taking work away from the OP even if it means breaking the law to do so.

Call me a black heart, but anyone that metaphorically steals food from my table is NOT my friend.

If it were me, I would have one angry confrontation with the 'friend' and let him know if he keeps stealing work from me I will turn him and everyone working with him in. End of discussion.

It would now be up to Mr. Friend to make the first attempt to salvage what was left of the 'friendship'.

Friends don't steal from friends.

Local Electrician · Mar 29, 2009

Some real good responses thanks, this forum is very active.

charlie · Mar 29, 2009

K8MHZ said:
. . . Friends don't steal from friends.

That qualifies as a poster or bumper sticker.

weressl · Mar 30, 2009

220/221 said:
Yeah. Some people are like that.

I believe in karma to some degree and I am no where near perfect enough to pull something like that.

How does that goes: 'Let those who have not sinned throw the first stone...and everybody left....' back when people still had some intergity.

growler · Mar 30, 2009

weressl said:
How does that goes: 'Let those who have not sinned throw the first stone...and everybody left....' back when people still had some intergity.

Actually that's an example of a lack of integrity. If they were men of integrity they would have stoned the person in question ( afer all it was God's Law).

Integrity: The firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values.

The fact that the person in question was not stoned shows that the people were open to new ideas and especially to suggestion.

People love the idea of being allowed to break any sort of laws or rules so that's always an easy sell but it has nothing to do with integrity.

220/221 · Mar 30, 2009

I'd still report him and if the OP want's to PM me, I handle it for him.

Of course you will first contact the friend and get his side of the story.....right?

Friends don't steal from friends.

I strongly disagree with that mentality. This work doesn't belong to either one of them. Stealing is when someone takes something that belongs to you....your posessions. There is no stealing involved.

If you want to make sure that you are on a legal, level playing field with your competition, do what you gotta do, but don't forget to do your research first.

roger · Mar 30, 2009

220/221 said:
Of course you will first contact the friend and get his side of the story.....right?

The board will do that.

220/221 said:
I strongly disagree with that mentality. This work doesn't belong to either one of them. Stealing is when someone takes something that belongs to you....your posessions. There is no stealing involved.

Others strongly disagree with that.

220/221 said:
If you want to make sure that you are on a legal, level playing field with your competition, do what you gotta do, but don't forget to do your research first.

Below you can read the licensing classifications and rules.

License Classification and Scope

There are 10 different classifications of electrical contracting licenses. Each license has a specific scope and limitation of work allowed. The Limited (L), Intermediate (I), and Unlimited (U) classifications allow a licensee to perform residential, commercial and industrial work. The Residential dwelling license (SP-SFD) permits electrical contracting projects pertaining to single-family detached residential dwellings. There are also six (6) special restricted electrical contracting classifications which allow only a limited phase of electrical contracting work: Low Voltage (SP-LV), Elevator (SP-EL), Plumbing, Heating, and Air Conditioning (SP-PH), Groundwater pump (SP-WP), Electric Sign (SP-ES), Swimming Pool (SP-SP).
The scope for each of the special restricted classifications is listed in Section .0800 of the rules and regulations.

and

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]87-43.3. Classification of licenses.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]An electrical contracting license shall be issued in one of the following classifications: Limited, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in a single electrical contracting project of a value not in excess of forty thousand dollars ($40,000) and on which the equipment or installation in the contract is rated at not more than 600 volts; Intermediate, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in a single electrical contracting project of a value not in excess of one hundred ten thousand dollars ($110,000); Unlimited, under which a licensee shall be permitted to engage in any electrical contracting project regardless of value; and such other special Restricted classifications as the Board may establish from time to time to provide, (i) for the licensing of persons, partnerships, firms or corporations wishing to engage in special restricted electrical contracting, under which license a licensee shall be permitted to engage only in a specific phase of electrical contracting of a special, limited nature, and (ii) for the licensing of persons, partnerships, firms or corporations wishing to engage in electrical contracting work as an incidental part of their primary business, which is a lawful business other than electrical contracting, under which license a licensee shall be permitted to engage only in a specific phase of electrical contracting of a special, limited nature directly in connection with said primary business. The Board may establish appropriate standards for each classification, such standards not to be inconsistent with the provisions of G.S. 87-42. The Board may, by rule, modify the project value limitations up to the maximum amounts set forth in this section for limited and intermediate licenses no more than once every three years based upon an increase or decrease in the project cost index for electrical projects in this State.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]and[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](a1) The following activities are prohibited:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](1) Offering to engage or engaging in electrical contracting without being licensed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](2) Selling, transferring, or assigning a license, regardless of whether for a fee.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](3) Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person, partnership, firm, or corporation to offer to engage or to engage in electrical contracting.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](4) Being convicted of a crime involving fraud or moral turpitude.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](5) Engaging in fraud or misrepresentation to obtain a certification, obtain or renew a license, or practice electrical contracting.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](6) Engaging in false or misleading advertising.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](7) Engaging in malpractice, unethical conduct, fraud, deceit, gross negligence, gross incompetence, or gross misconduct in the practice of electrical contracting.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Operating above your license limit is treated pretty much the same as Number 1 above.[/FONT]

Below is (name and license number removed by me) a recent case

CASE FILE NUMBER: 2007-125
LICENSEE: XXXXXX
ADDRESS:xxxxxxxxxx
LISTED QUALIFIED INDIVIDUAL: XXXXX
LICENSE NUMBER: XXXX
VIOLATION(S): Violation of North Carolina General
Statutes 87-43, 87-43.3, 87-47, (a1), (1), (3), (5), (7) in
that the licensee engaged in the XXXXXX Center
electrical contracting project located at XXXXXX, NC which exceeded the limit of a
Limited license by engaging in the referenced project
having a value in excess of the twenty-five thousand
($25,000) limitation for a Limited license.
BOARD ACTION: The Board, acting through its
staff, proposed a reprimand, a $500.00 civil penalty and
twelve (12) months probation with conditions not to
commit any further violation of the General Statutes or
the Rules of the Board. In the event of failure to comply
with the probation conditions, the Board may impose a
sanction of twelve (12) months suspension of license and
the right to serve as a listed qualified individual on any
license issued by the Board.
There was no objection from the licensee and the Board
concurred in the action of staff.
EFFECTIVE DATE: September 25, 2008.

Roger

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Dnkldorf · Mar 30, 2009

Roger, is there a penalty of any type for submitting a false claim?

roger · Mar 30, 2009

Dnkldorf said:
Roger, is there a penalty of any type for submitting a false claim?

If it is done maliciously there should be.

Roger

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