What is "Industrial"?

[mattsilkwood]

ive gotta say that out of it all i like industrial the most, residential gets boring to me just about the time i unload the truck. i have been on some high end custom homes that kinda fun but all in all i hate romex. to me industrial is alot more fun because there is so much more to it and your not doing the same thing every day. and that feeling when that macine you just spent 2 weeks terminating fires up and starts running product i gotta tel ya it kinda chokes you up. and dont get me wrong im not hating on all the resi guys, i know a few that wouldnt give it up for anything but its not for me.

 

[bikeindy]

About 80 % of my business is Residential and only 10% of that is new construction. But i won't limit myself. Here is some fun I had turning a production line up from 1983 to 2007.

The touch screen you see in the last pic was programmed by me and replaced all the switches and lights on the old panel. The enclosures were provided to me by the plant and the pictures are not of completed work, there was some things left to do when these were taken. The production line had gone down on Tuesday and I was called, I was able to get it working by bypassing some of the old PLC relays and installing switches. I programmed built and installed debugged and had them up and running with this new panel the following Monday.

Here is a house we wired we only do 2 homes a year, would take more but we don't do anything under 4000 SF.

We just finished a Tanning salon two weeks ago and we start on a build out for a Radio shack on Monday.

If you don't own the tools, they have these really neat places that will rent them to you.

 

[peter d]

But i won't limit myself. Here is some fun I had turning a production line up from 1983 to 2007.

May I ask what kind of production line doesn't require any "tuning up" in the last 25 years?

 

[zog]

I have to disagree.

I am very capable of wiring a new house on Monday, then "old working" new outlets in an existing house on Tuesday, Then adding lights, receptacles, phone, and data lines in a commercial office on Wednesday, then installing a new 480v 100a line to a new machine in an industrial factory on Thursday, then take off Friday because i'm tired.......... and need a day off.......



I have been in the electrical field since I was 14, I'm now 45.

I may not be able to wire a new GM building, but that doesn't mean I can't do industrial work someplace else.

What can you tell me about the advantages of Tan Delta testing vs Partial Discharge testing of EPR sheilded cables?

 

[iwire]

Stemming from brians post about van logos, what do you consider "Industrial"?

I believe it is impossible to do residential and industrial. Industrial is Steel mills, car plants, paper mills, mines, stuff like that.

What is the point here?

Is there an answer your looking for?

A change in the rules?

 

[bikeindy]

May I ask what kind of production line doesn't require any "tuning up" in the last 25 years?

One that has dry concrete mix blowing into bags that weigh 40# 60# and 80# when full. you may have seen them in gold and black bags at places like Lowes and Home Depot.

the line I upgraded has 16 different concrete and mortar mix receipes, The program chooses which aggrigate and cement to use depending on the receipe and then weighs in the corect amount of each to a weigh hopper which then dumps dow through a gravity mixer and is spout fed into bags, dropped on a conveyor and then paletized and moved by fork truck to the warehouse.

 

[brantmacga]

In other words, there are certain tools required for industrial work that cause a higher overhead cost, so you have to bill enough work at that higher rate to cover the associated overhead.

not to worry, i caught the point that escaped and brought it back for you to see.

you can't cover the overhead costs associated w/ industrial doing residential work.

i equate this to brian john buying a $50k piece of equipment to test breakers, and then spending the majority of his time wiring spec homes. you'll say, "well he just needs to charge enough when he does the tests to cover the costs". i'm certainly not one to compare myself against the going rate, but if i had to charge 20x what my competitor did to pay for the equipment, its time to move on to my next career as a wal-mart greeter or something like that.

i'm not talking about one or two day industrial jobs where you go troubleshoot or just add a small piece of equipment, i'm talking about new industrial turn-key systems.

 

[zog]

What is the point here?

Is there an answer your looking for?

A change in the rules?

No answer I am looking for, just opinions.

I think industrial is a very loose term, I see posts in here when people say they do resi, comm, and ind, and I see some of what is called industrial and they are in places smaller than I have ever walked into. I am a heavy industrial guy and hire "real" electricians for my house and our shops, some of the stuff resi and commercial guys know is greek to me, and vice versa.

I had a big southern EC company in my shop last week hooking up 240V power for our new big ass fan (www.bigassfans.com) , a 240V paint booth, several other pieces of equipments and a bunch of 120V drops. They said if this is all on one service you might need to use what we call "switchgear". This discussion is taking place where we are surrounded by 480, and 15kV siwtchgear all around us stacked 4 shelfs high up to a 50 ft roof. We all looked around us and said, "Thats not what we call switchgear!" But, we had hired them for a reason, we do industrial, they do commercial, apples and oranges.

 

[zog]

not to worry, i caught the point that escaped and brought it back for you to see.

you can't cover the overhead costs associated w/ industrial doing residential work.

i equate this to brian john buying a $50k piece of equipment to test breakers, and then spending the majority of his time wiring spec homes. you'll say, "well he just needs to charge enough when he does the tests to cover the costs". i'm certainly not one to compare myself against the going rate, but if i had to charge 20x what my competitor did to pay for the equipment, its time to move on to my next career as a wal-mart greeter or something like that.

i'm not talking about one or two day industrial jobs where you go troubleshoot or just add a small piece of equipment, i'm talking about new industrial turn-key systems.

That said most of the resi and commercial guys here charge more (Based on the recent what to charge thread) than us guys who iwn the $1M in test equipment.

 

[bikeindy]

No answer I am looking for, just opinions.

I think industrial is a very loose term, I see posts in here when people say they do resi, comm, and ind, and I see some of what is called industrial and they are in places smaller than I have ever walked into. I am a heavy industrial guy and hire "real" electricians for my house and our shops, some of the stuff resi and commercial guys know is greek to me, and vice versa.

I had a big southern EC company in my shop last week hooking up 240V power for our new big ass fan (www.bigassfans.com) , a 240V paint booth, several other pieces of equipments and a bunch of 120V drops. They said if this is all on one service you might need to use what we call "switchgear". This discussion is taking place where we are surrounded by 480, and 15kV siwtchgear all around us stacked 4 shelfs high up to a 50 ft roof. We all looked around us and said, "Thats not what we call switchgear!" But, we had hired them for a reason, we do industrial, they do commercial, apples and oranges.

I don't think it is apples and oranges it is all electrical and there isin't a lot of difference other than size of the work and different applications. Homes have automation systems as do industrial plants it is just a differents in size and application. I don't bid on large commercial because I don't have the man power or capital do accomplish it. That doesn't mean I couldn't do it. I think it boils down to what you enjoy doing. I would love to program a PLC for a large production line, but it ain't going to happen they don't have time to wait for me to do it.

 

[growler]

I don't bid on large commercial because I don't have the man power or capital do accomplish it.

That's what slows most people down ( including myself ). It's like a high stakes poker game you really need some green to get in the game.

A company near me just does smaller industrial projects and they went two million in the red back in 1998. They didn't go out of business but it did take time to get back in the black. One of the owners told me he didn't get a real nights sleep for 6 months ( they had their homes mortgaged ). I think they are back in the chips these last few years.

If you play for high stakes you either win big or you lose big.

 

[jdsmith]

not to worry, i caught the point that escaped and brought it back for you to see.

you can't cover the overhead costs associated w/ industrial doing residential work.

i equate this to brian john buying a $50k piece of equipment to test breakers, and then spending the majority of his time wiring spec homes. you'll say, "well he just needs to charge enough when he does the tests to cover the costs". i'm certainly not one to compare myself against the going rate, but if i had to charge 20x what my competitor did to pay for the equipment, its time to move on to my next career as a wal-mart greeter or something like that.

i'm not talking about one or two day industrial jobs where you go troubleshoot or just add a small piece of equipment, I'm talking about new industrial turn-key systems.

Exactly. I was in a hurry and didn't get the rest of that typed, but I agree.

Another way to look at it is to try to make the numbers work by renting all of the big fancy equipment. This reduces profit since you're paying for the profit of the rental yard, but you don't have to have the cash up front. Once you've got a few of the big jobs under your belt and you've passed the learning curve for that type of job, then you can make the equipment investment. This would allow you to decide not to do some class of work if the learning curve is too steep and avoid having to sell equipment after that decision.

I haven't had to try that approach yet - anything I rent is because I don't think I need it again for a long time. Does this type of transitioning actually work, or am I dreaming?

 

[iaov]

My definition of industrial is drives,PLC's,transformers (Big) and ridgid conduit. Some one said already that it takes some pretty serious green to go and play that game. Anything that I could do as a very small company they probably have in house electricians for. I spent 18 years being one of those in house electricians and while I miss the thrill of pushing the button on the lap top and having 40 million dollars worth of machinery start running again,thats about all I miss. I like Romex, I like EMT, I like weekends off!:grin:

 

[Chamuit]

I think it's "cool" what Industrial Electricians do. Interesting other dimension to the electrical field. Still, your are talking about the flow of 'lectricity. AZ does not appear to have a seperate license for Industrial work. We do see Commercial/Industrial (advertised) truck running around here.

The Arizona Registrar of Contractors issues separate licenses for commercial and residential work, and dual licenses that cover both commercial and residential, for each particular trade or field of the construction profession.

Residential contracting is defined as construction on residential structures such as houses, townhouses, condominiums or cooperative units and apartment complexes of four units or less. Residential construction also includes any appurtenances on or within residential property lines, connection to utility service and sewer lines, meters and mechanical or structural service for any residential structure.

COMMERCIAL construction is anything other than RESIDENTIAL

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

One can liken our industry to a football team.
There are different positions on a team that players take. Some guys may be able to play different positions, but they play one of those positions well.
As with the different positions on the team, there are different portions of our industry.
Not taking sides, but it mostly boils down to experience and training in regards to what one person is really able to perform, and perform well.

 

[zog]

One can liken our industry to a football team.
There are different positions on a team that players take. Some guys may be able to play different positions, but they play one of those positions well.
As with the different positions on the team, there are different portions of our industry.
Not taking sides, but it mostly boils down to experience and training in regards to what one person is really able to perform, and perform well.

Well put Pierre.

 

[brantmacga]

One can liken our industry to a football team.
There are different positions on a team that players take. Some guys may be able to play different positions, but they play one of those positions well.
As with the different positions on the team, there are different portions of our industry.
Not taking sides, but it mostly boils down to experience and training in regards to what one person is really able to perform, and perform well.

yes, that's a great way to look at it.

 

[roger3829]

What can you tell me about the advantages of Tan Delta testing vs Partial Discharge testing of EPR sheilded cables?

Nope.

Don't need to. I would like to know but right now that's not going to make me any money. I would find out what the difference was if I needed to. Then find out if it was something I could understand and do.:roll:

I only do what I am capable of doing in all fields. I'm not going to try to bid on installing EPR shielded cables just like I'm not going to bid on wiring a 8000 SqFt house that has to be completed in 2 days.

I know my limitations and don't exceed them in any field. I would rather tell a customer I can't do a job (and I have) then get buried in over my head. I know I can't really compete with contractors that do nothing but large commercial, but I still can do some.

As far as the cost of big tools, I have rented from another contractor in my town. We have a good relationship. He knows I'm not going to hurt his bottom line. Did I mention I am mostly a 1 man shop?

 

[blue spark]

We're 75%+ resi. I really enjoy it. Sometimes however I get to change hats (hardhat) and do some work at the mine. Granted it's pretty simple stuff mostly but on a bigger scale. We picked up a used hydraulic bender, threader, and a big band saw. Anything else we need we rent or the mine provides. The best part is it makes me think and I learn whatever I can soak up. I never really dealt with Class I Div I stuff until I started mine work. 4160 was a treat. Operating a 60 ton rail hoist was a blast. Not to mention most of the mine electricians were more than happy to show me the ins and outs of the place. Me an industrial electrician? Nope. But I've done and love to do light industrial. It's a nice change of pace.

 

[ptonsparky]

I do work at industrials, small ones. Am I going to design/install a job for an automotive assembly line? No. The small plastics sheet mfg? A machine shop? Sure.