What would you do?

[Jim W in Tampa]

Simply put i would not put by name on this hack job. Your asking because you know its wrong. Tell customer of the violation and the risk. I would not touch it short of fixing it right. If that comes to $1,000 then so be it. Let them hire a hack but leave me out of it. By knowing you set yourself up for what ever happens and that might be a fire that kills.
Your being a fool to let this get you into the picture over saving money.

 

[mivey]

My first action after discovering the issue would be:
1. to disconnect the circuit
2. speak personally with the customer and fully explain the situation. "fire, shock, death" is how I relate these types of issues, no beating around the bush.
3. depending on the reaction I receive, is how I would treat the situation.
3-A. customer says fix it, I fix it
3-B. customer says it worked fine all these years leave it alone. I will not reconnect and put in writing what has occurred - which now means I am most likely leaving the premises

Sounds good to me.

 

[Electrical guy]

Simply put i would not put by name on this hack job. Your asking because you know its wrong. Tell customer of the violation and the risk. I would not touch it short of fixing it right. If that comes to $1,000 then so be it. Let them hire a hack but leave me out of it. By knowing you set yourself up for what ever happens and that might be a fire that kills.
Your being a fool to let this get you into the picture over saving money.

From a business point of view excellent answer.

 

[George Stolz]

Man, I need to go get my robes bleached.

My decision on the spot was to install a GFI breaker and move on, making a note of it. By the end of this job (67 down, 90 to go) I'll be in a position to issue the customer a credit, and this will likely be paid for out of that credit, with free drywall repairs for me, as I see it. I don't have a doubt in my mind I'll be paid for it. I was going to swap a few cans in the office for some panels that didn't warrant changing anyway.

As this has sat for over 30 years with no damage, I figured one more month to add it to the end of the schedule (instead of disrupting the entire schedule over this issue) wasn't that big a deal. Convincing a single mom to do something with her kids other than watch TV for a month scares me more.

While the GFCI isn't the perfect temporary fix, it was readily available and better than a standard breaker, IMO.

Should I really have left it disconnected and disrupted everything for this? Really? I suppose my OP didn't really lay out the scope all that well, but I didn't expect this polarized of a response in favor of B. Interesting.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[quogueelectric]

Man, I need to go get my robes bleached.

My decision on the spot was to install a GFI breaker and move on, making a note of it. By the end of this job (67 down, 90 to go) I'll be in a position to issue the customer a credit, and this will likely be paid for out of that credit, with free drywall repairs for me, as I see it. I don't have a doubt in my mind I'll be paid for it. I was going to swap a few cans in the office for some panels that didn't warrant changing anyway.

As this has sat for over 30 years with no damage, I figured one more month to add it to the end of the schedule (instead of disrupting the entire schedule over this issue) wasn't that big a deal. Convincing a single mom to do something with her kids other than watch TV for a month scares me more.

While the GFCI isn't the perfect temporary fix, it was readily available and better than a standard breaker, IMO.

Should I really have left it disconnected and disrupted everything for this? Really? I suppose my OP didn't really lay out the scope all that well, but I didn't expect this polarized of a response in favor of B. Interesting.

Thanks for the replies.

IMHO my aproach would be that I did not create this problem and that it was preexisting prior to me working on it.
I feel that I have a responsibility to any and all people who sleep live and work in this building to provide them with a safe and code compliant installation.
To hook it back up not fixed is a danger to everyone including some idiot handyman who tries to install a paddlefan and gets electrocuted because he does not expect voltage on the wrong wire. He could be startled fall off a ladder and break his neck also. The gfci will only protect in a fault to ground.
My work wold involve a yellow wirenut on the wire where the breaker to feed it is. I would take take a picture or two file it and somehow in writing make the owner aware of the situation. I would not be confrontational about it but just send it in an email or a fax so you have proof of notification of the problem. People tend to get very defensive when you send them a registered letter type thing.
It is not my fault that they have poor wiring in the building so I would expect to get paid for fixing it. I also have a very rigid process for marking all wires and circuits in all panel changes to specifically address this issue when there is a problem. it takes an addl 15 min but I draw a very acurate diagram of the panel how it was hooked up I double number all wires cut in the middle. make note of all breaker on off tripped positions breaker ampacity and wire color and size.

 

[dbuckley]

My first action after discovering the issue would be:
1. to disconnect the circuit
2. speak personally with the customer and fully explain the situation. "fire, shock, death" is how I relate these types of issues, no beating around the bush.
....

Problem is, theres thirty years of history that says its just fine and there hasn't bean a fire, a shock or a death.

Your poosition is absolutely correct, but needs a better selling angle.

 

[macmikeman]

Move to Chicago, and then you can just pull in another wire next time.....

Um, myself, I put in a simple sentance into each proposal.(actually it is a boiler plate proposal I just save as, with each customer and change out the work description and price and dates and such. The sentance is:We are not responsible for any existing defects in the wiring system, and if a repair becomes necessary, then any repair we may be required to perform, or if you simply choose for us to perform the repair, the price of that work is in addition to the quoted price of this proposal.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I'm not sure I completely understand the OP. The bare wire is being used as the grounded conductor and the ground between the panel and the 1st box, and the white wire is being used as the ungrounded conductor in the same run. I think I'm right so far.

Now I get confused, where in the circuit is this "jumper" installed?

 

[guschash]

I choose A. If I can fix, then I usually will tell the owner and let him decide. If I can't fix it, then I will leave it like I found it.

Gus

 

[George Stolz]

I'm not sure I completely understand the OP. The bare wire is being used as the grounded conductor and the ground between the panel and the 1st box, and the white wire is being used as the ungrounded conductor in the same run. I think I'm right so far.

Yes.

Now I get confused, where in the circuit is this "jumper" installed?

In the first box. The jumper is between the EGCs on the load side of the first box and the neutrals in the box.

Anybody have a clue why I show an open neutral when the jumper is removed, but it holds on a GFCI? I have been puzzling over it, and haven't figured out an answer yet.

 

[blee]

Definitely B. Do not reconnect it, unless you're prepared to convince everyone you were never there.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Anybody have a clue why I show an open neutral when the jumper is removed, but it holds on a GFCI? I have been puzzling over it, and haven't figured out an answer yet.

George,

Where are you testing (which box, which conductors) when the jumper is removed. I only ask, because with no jumper I'm picturing the neutral (white wire) leaving the 1st box has nothing connected to it and therefore everything after that will show an open neutral. I don't think this is what you are asking, so I'm in need for a little more information.

By the way, after thinking about this, I'm of the opinion you did the right thing (assuming the bare wire is a full size and not a reduced size). I don't see this being a fire hazard and you took precautions to alleviate the shock hazard by installing the GFCI. I assume you will not just let it go like this though.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Doing anything not to nec makes you take on liability. Yes hardship on customer if they are broke. We can not judge the future on past 30 years. If in 30 years i never trip a breaker is it safe to remove them ? Your putting yourself in a mess in court if anything happens and that could even be prison. If you feel that sorry for her then fix on credit. I would not half way fix for even 1 day

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Doing anything not to nec makes you take on liability. Yes hardship on customer if they are broke. We can not judge the future on past 30 years. If in 30 years i never trip a breaker is it safe to remove them ? Your putting yourself in a mess in court if anything happens and that could even be prison. If you feel that sorry for her then fix on credit. I would not half way fix for even 1 day

I guess you never travel 60 MPH in a 55 MPH speed zone. :roll:

 

[George Stolz]

George,

Where are you testing (which box, which conductors) when the jumper is removed. I only ask, because with no jumper I'm picturing the neutral (white wire) leaving the 1st box has nothing connected to it and therefore everything after that will show an open neutral. I don't think this is what you are asking, so I'm in need for a little more information.

The bare neutral enters a two-gang box. It is connected to the normal white neutrals inside the two-gang, with the exception of the white that is tied to the blacks (the white being the home run ungrounded conductor.)

Everything looks exactly as I expected it to, when I looked in the panel and started thinking about what I might see. It looks like the black opened, and they moved the white to take the black's job, and then left the ground on the ground bar but started using it as a neutral in the two gang.

I'm just trying to think of another theory about what's there before I reenter the unit and starting tearing things up. It's kind of a rhetorical question, since it's coming out anyway, but if these symptoms are telling me that my mental picture isn't right (which I know it's not), then I might miss something.

...not a reduced size.... I assume you will not just let it go like this though.

Not a reduced size, and no I won't.

our putting yourself in a mess in court if anything happens and that could even be prison.

Just to give you some more heartburn, I happened to open an access panel and find a splice with no box today, and I just wrote it down.

Thinking about that more, there are no 30A circuits in the building, and the splice was 10-2 NM. That means it's probably coming from the house panel on a building central to the project, and is not disconnected before entering the building, which is another violation...

 

[quogueelectric]

Yes.

In the first box. The jumper is between the EGCs on the load side of the first box and the neutrals in the box.

Anybody have a clue why I show an open neutral when the jumper is removed, but it holds on a GFCI? I have been puzzling over it, and haven't figured out an answer yet.

Is it holding on a gfci breaker or receptacle and where is the receptacle located if it is a receptacle?

 

[quogueelectric]

The bare neutral enters a two-gang box. It is connected to the normal white neutrals inside the two-gang, with the exception of the white that is tied to the blacks (the white being the home run ungrounded conductor.)

Everything looks exactly as I expected it to, when I looked in the panel and started thinking about what I might see. It looks like the black opened, and they moved the white to take the black's job, and then left the ground on the ground bar but started using it as a neutral in the two gang.

I'm just trying to think of another theory about what's there before I reenter the unit and starting tearing things up. It's kind of a rhetorical question, since it's coming out anyway, but if these symptoms are telling me that my mental picture isn't right (which I know it's not), then I might miss something.


Not a reduced size, and no I won't.


Just to give you some more heartburn, I happened to open an access panel and find a splice with no box today, and I just wrote it down.

Thinking about that more, there are no 30A circuits in the building, and the splice was 10-2 NM. That means it's probably coming from the house panel on a building central to the project, and is not disconnected before entering the building, which is another violation...

What did they do with the black of the compromized feed??

 

[George Stolz]

Is it holding on a gfci breaker or receptacle and where is the receptacle located if it is a receptacle?

Yes, the GFCI breaker holds with or without the jumper from neutral to ground in place. It holds when there is a load on the circuit.

What did they do with the black of the compromized feed??

Clipped at the connector at the panel side, capped on the two-gang side.

 

[growler]

As this has sat for over 30 years with no damage, I figured one more month to add it to the end of the schedule (instead of disrupting the entire schedule over this issue) wasn't that big a deal. Convincing a single mom to do something with her kids other than watch TV for a month scares me more.

While the GFCI isn't the perfect temporary fix, it was readily available and better than a standard breaker, IMO.

One more option. Most scheduled work is sheduled for an 8 hour day and a 5 day week to keep the cost down. No overtime.

Why not view this problem as an emergency and have it repaired after hours even at overtime rates. This would let you keep to original schedule for panel changes.

It's probably not all that dangerous but you will sleep better knowing it's been properly repaired.

 

[quogueelectric]

Yes, the GFCI breaker holds with or without the jumper from neutral to ground in place. It holds when there is a load on the circuit.


Clipped at the connector at the panel side, capped on the two-gang side.

Does the breaker trip if you hit the test button? Try grounding the neutral in the panel and see if it trips .Have you tried swapping out gfci breakers with a new one temporarily to see if it holds? Last but not least is the little piggy tail landed properly and the load neutral under the screw on the breaker.???????