What would you do?

[Sierrasparky]

Hi all.
I did a service call at a condo complex the other day. It had a bad breaker. I pulled it out and the clips were burned. The Buss was ok but what I found amazed me. This breaker was a 20 amp and on a #12 Aluminum wire. I looked further and all the 20 amp breakers were #12 AL. This paticular one was for the kitchen counter. I replaced with a 20 amp. I got a call the next morning because the breaker kept tripping. I had told the manager that and he told me all the units had #12 Al. I refused to place a 20 amp on the #12 AL.

What would you folks do?

 

[480sparky]

Install an amp meter on the circuit.

Is it tripping because of an overload? If so, they need to have things updated and rewired.

 

[Sierrasparky]

It's the kitchen counter. Micro, coffee maker, Toaster oven, No need to amp the thing Just look at it it's overloaded . By the way they don't want to re-wire the complex. Said it worked for years.

The question would any of you just replace the 20 and be gone. I think it's a problem waiting to happen!

 

[jwjrw]

I would first check amps
I would see what on kitchen counter could be the cause
I would leave breaker alone and not touch that panel unless i had to
If I had to I would fuse the circuit I touched propperly
Sounds like something being plugged in and tripping the breaker.

 

[jwjrw]

It's the kitchen counter. Micro, coffee maker, Toaster oven, No need to amp the thing Just look at it it's overloaded . By the way they don't want to re-wire the complex. Said it worked for years.

The question would any of you just replace the 20 and be gone. I think it's a problem waiting to happen!

Why replace it if the circuit is overloaded? I wouldnt want to work in a complex that has that many units overfused and the owners not worried about it. Here is my bill for telling you that the circuit trips because its overloaded.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Let's see
Micro 1500 watts
Toaster oven 1400 watts
Coffee Maker 900 watts

1500 + 1400 + 900 = 3800 watts on a 15 amp circuit. Oh by the way the customer said that they allways use all the appliances in the morning.
Why would you break out the amp meter, This is very simple.

To me this is not an issue as to if there is a problem with faulty conductors other than the wrong size was used in the original construction. The problem is that the breaker was oversized in the first place and I replaced with the correct one and the overloaded appliances still exist and will continue to trip. The kitchen layout won't change.

The "original" question is if any of you would just replace the breaker with the wrong size for the wire and be done?

 

[480sparky]

.......Said it worked for years. ......

Yep. And my water heater worked just fine for years.

Then it quit.





And my furnace worked just fine for years.

Then it quit.








And the brakes on my truck worked just fine for years.

Then they took a dump.










And my garden hose worked just fine for years.

Then it sprang a leak.







And my brain worked just fine for years.

Then I got old.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why replace it if the circuit is overloaded? I wouldnt want to work in a complex that has that many units overfused and the owners not worried about it. Here is my bill for telling you that the circuit trips because its overloaded.

I was called for a burned out breaker which I replaced with a new 15 amp.
Some of you I feel seem to feel this was wrong. Of course I can and will not do any further work unless it will be to code.

 

[zappy]

Is it possible it's 10 awg?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Hi all.
I did a service call at a condo complex the other day. It had a bad breaker. I pulled it out and the clips were burned. The Buss was ok but what I found amazed me. This breaker was a 20 amp and on a #12 Aluminum wire. I looked further and all the 20 amp breakers were #12 AL. This paticular one was for the kitchen counter. I replaced with a 20 amp. I got a call the next morning because the breaker kept tripping. I had told the manager that and he told me all the units had #12 Al. I refused to place a 20 amp on the #12 AL.

What would you folks do?

Oops I see I said replaced with a 20 I meant 15.. Sorry

 

[jwjrw]

Let's see
Micro 1500 watts
Toaster oven 1400 watts
Coffee Maker 900 watts

1500 + 1400 + 900 = 3800 watts on a 15 amp circuit. Oh by the way the customer said that they allways use all the appliances in the morning.
Why would you break out the amp meter, This is very simple.

To me this is not an issue as to if there is a problem with faulty conductors other than the wrong size was used in the original construction. The problem is that the breaker was oversized in the first place and I replaced with the correct one and the overloaded appliances still exist and will continue to trip. The kitchen layout won't change.

The "original" question is if any of you would just replace the breaker with the wrong size for the wire and be done?

I would take an amp reading just so I would know what is actually happening in real time on the circuit. I hear you about the watts but I still want to know for sure. What if the microwave is now pulling more than nameplate and it would hold before but not now? Its just me but I like to know what I think is wrong.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Is it possible it's 10 awg?

Nope it be #12.. checked with the wire guage. and by the by the #10s that supply the water heaters are all on 30 amp breakers. I suppose one could argue that one.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would take an amp reading just so I would know what is actually happening in real time on the circuit. I hear you about the watts but I still want to know for sure. What if the microwave is now pulling more than nameplate and it would hold before but not now? Its just me but I like to know what I think is wrong.

JR are you not worried about the #12 AL wire??????????
Laast time I checked it's "is" " was " and always only good for 15 amps for receptacle loads.

Any of you old timers chime in if I was taught incorrectly!

 

[satcom]

In my opinion you did the right thing, let him find some brain dead dummy to kill a family living there.

 

[Nium]

But I need my coffee

But I need my coffee

No, I wouldn't put a 20A breaker on a #12 Al small appliance branch circuit. You did right and replaced the faulty breaker with the correct size 15A breaker, IMHO. If the property manager doesn't want to upgrade the wiring then have them advise the tenant they need to use fewer appliances at the same time. I had same issue in a 1, 20A circuit apartment kitchen. Tenant used coffee maker, toaster (industrial size 4 slice at once jobber), and microwave all at same time and breaker would trip because it was overloaded. I advised landlord that another circuit would solve problem. He advised tenant not to use all the appliances at once.:roll:

Just because it worked before I got here doesn't mean it was done right.

 

[aline]

The question would any of you just replace the 20 and be gone. I think it's a problem waiting to happen!

I would replace the breaker with the correct size and state on the invoice why.
I would also state that the breaker could possibly trip now because the correct breaker is of a lower ampacity.

I would also state that the other circuit breakers are oversized as well and present a fire hazard. I would get a signature on this showing that the owner was made aware of the situation.

I would then refer them to this website and have the link listed on the invoice.
http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm#bannertop

They have the information now and it's up to them to decide what they want to do.
I will only do what I feel is a safe installation and meets code.
Aluminum wiring has enough problems without overloading it.

 

[fisherelectric]

You did the right thing. I would've checked the exact amperage of each appliance just to make sure there's not something going on with one of them, then told the owner exactly what you found...that the appliances are fine...there's just too many of them...that the circuit is over fused and a potential problem and liability....you can't, by code, install a new 20 amp breaker on it or it would become your liability....they can try moving some of the appliances around to the other small appliance circuit.

 

[fisherelectric]

You did the right thing. I would have checked the amperage on each appliance just to be sure and then tell the owner exactly what you found.....there is nothing wrong with any of the appliances....there's just too many of them....the circuit is over fused as it is and could be a potential problem and a liability....you can't replace the breaker with a 20 because then it would become your liability. Show him 240.4(D). They could try moving the appliances around to get them on the other kitchen circuit. Have you been payed yet? Either way, be diplomatic when you tell him.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Show him 240.4(D). They could try moving the appliances around to get them on the other kitchen circuit. Have you been payed yet? Either way, be diplomatic when you tell him.

By the way that code section was not worded that way when the AL wire was installed.

 

[satcom]

By the way that code section was not worded that way when the AL wire was installed.

No the code section was not worded that way, however you still sized the circuit correct.

We found most of the building managers do what is cheap, not what is right, as they say be nice and just present the facts, and his options.