What would you do?

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jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
I don't open a panel, see #12 aluminum on a 20 a breaker, then turn around and demand someone sign the form while I chamber a round.

You sure about that?

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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
.......Notices like 480 is just a path for immediate termination. I may feel like 480 but there must be a better way. Dimplomatic.

Apparently you didn't read my response. The form is A LAST RESORT. NOT A FIRST RESPONSE!

If you are in an auto accident, and medics are called to the scene, you can refuse to be treated. But the medics and ambulance crews do NOT force you to sign anything upon their arrival, do they? NO.

Neither do I.

And me, just like they, DO NOT pull out firearms and demand someone sign a form.



What part of this do you not understand now?
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
I don't think it ever was legal to put 14 al on a 20a breaker for most circuits.

I know that! I was saying #12 was legal in kitchens at one time (the whole complex was in #12) and never said anything about fusing it at 20 amps.

I have always heard it is not legal to run Al anymore. In art 310.14 tells you what the Al has to be made out of. But I didnt see an out right no AL for branch cicruits. Set me straight please.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Aluminum wire.

Aluminum wire.

Did you check to make sure your breaker was listed for aluminum wire? How about the counter receptacles, are they the Al/Cu type? Is the circuit in conduit? Might be an opportunity to rewire a circuit and fix the whole question. Did you check the rest of the house for burned receptacles? Sounds like a great opportunity to do a bunch of work there. Have you tried to up sell on smoke and carbon monoxide detectors? Maybe suggest a service change to CAFCI breakers? I can understand the Slum Lord might not want to but its an opportunity.
Liability? None if you do it right. Very little if you do it wrong, and have your ducks in a row first.
FYI aluminum ampacity vs. copper ampacity is generally one breaker size less.
As a side note there is one third more copper (circular mils) in each increase in wire size.
 
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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
480:

Where I come from the medics do have refusal forms for you to sign


And they do here as well.

My point is, they do not hop out of the ambulance, take one look at your bloody face and broken leg, and demand you sign it right off the bat.

They will do whatever they can to attend to you first. It is only as a last resort, after you refuse to be treated several times, that they will request you sign the form.

I do the same thing should I encounter a serious electrical problem. I will explain the danger, show the code book, and try to impart the impact it may have in the future.

I may say something like, "Well, I obviously cannot guarantee that the building will burn down, nor can I predict when it will if it does at all, but what I see here is a serious problem that should be corrected. However, should there be a fire and the building burns down, you can rest assured that both the fire marshal and your insurance company will get involved. If it is determined that this definceincy was the cause of the problem, you may be looking at an insurance carrier that refuses to pay. And if it can be proven that you knew about the problem and declined to correct it, criminal charges could be considered. Now, in order to protect me from any future lawuits that might arise should this worst-case scenario become a reality, I'll ask you to sign a waiver stating that I have indeed informed you of the issue as well as your refusal to permit me to correct it."

This is a far cry from sierrasparky's envisioned "Oh, my, well.... will you look at that. Damn, that's bad. I see hundreds of people dying tomorrow morning in a massive fire. It'll be on the six-o'clock news about how you allowed them to die needlessly in a fire you could have prevented. Oh well, no skin off my nose. However, I'm going to require you to sign this form right here and right now or else I'm going to call Vinnie and Bruno over to do things 'the old world way', if you know what I mean (wink wink)."
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
And they do here as well.

My point is, they do not hop out of the ambulance, take one look at your bloody face and broken leg, and demand you sign it right off the bat.

They will do whatever they can to attend to you first. It is only as a last resort, after you refuse to be treated several times, that they will request you sign the form.

I do the same thing should I encounter a serious electrical problem. I will explain the danger, show the code book, and try to impart the impact it may have in the future.

I may say something like, "Well, I obviously cannot guarantee that the building will burn down, nor can I predict when it will if it does at all, but what I see here is a serious problem that should be corrected. However, should there be a fire and the building burns down, you can rest assured that both the fire marshal and your insurance company will get involved. If it is determined that this definceincy was the cause of the problem, you may be looking at an insurance carrier that refuses to pay. And if it can be proven that you knew about the problem and declined to correct it, criminal charges could be considered. Now, in order to protect me from any future lawuits that might arise should this worst-case scenario become a reality, I'll ask you to sign a waiver stating that I have indeed informed you of the issue as well as your refusal to permit me to correct it."

This is a far cry from sierrasparky's envisioned "Oh, my, well.... will you look at that. Damn, that's bad. I see hundreds of people dying tomorrow morning in a massive fire. It'll be on the six-o'clock news about how you allowed them to die needlessly in a fire you could have prevented. Oh well, no skin off my nose. However, I'm going to require you to sign this form right here and right now or else I'm going to call Vinnie and Bruno over to do things 'the old world way', if you know what I mean (wink wink)."


Sparky here > I don't think that is what I invisioned.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Sparky here > I don't think that is what I invisioned.

I'm sorry. I guess you envisioned I just shoved the form in their face and demanded they sign it.

....Notices like 480 is just a path for immediate termination. I may feel like 480 but there must be a better way. Dimplomatic.

Placing such a document in ones face is not going to get you more work. It is not being very diplomatic. There must be a softer way to protect oneself!

Why would you think you could get someone to sign such a document!
If I were that Manager I would never sign such a thing. And if you presented such a document I would never see your company at this place ever again.
 

mike107

Member
Location
Florida
A very wise man once told me "Don't do anything you can't defend in court." A shame we have to be like that but that'ts the way it is.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
480
I really don't see what your problem is.

This intention of this thread was not about protecting oneself. It really was about If any of you would just place a 20 amp breaker and call it existing and be done. Knowing that you were not the first one in this panel and noticed the problem. I refused and installed a 15amp,I pesonally would never do a repair by placing higher than allowable OCPD just to make it work.

I see some much of similar situations I am begining to think that I must be using the wrong code book or something. It's not necessarily about cost you should see what some have charged for work around here.
There was a unlicensed guy who charged almost 800.00 to re-feed three runs in a small 800 sqft.condo that were roughly 30' each damaged by rodents. The ceiling was already open from another ongoing job. There was some wall fishing involved. This guy charged 4 hours labor and almost 300 bucks for 12-2 and 12-3. He basiacally charged for a whole roll of each. He charged labor and material. what a crock
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
"Now, in order to protect me from any future lawuits that might arise should this worst-case scenario become a reality, I'll ask you to sign a waiver stating that I have indeed informed you of the issue as well as your refusal to permit me to correct it."
What if the reaction is to refuse to sign, thinking that it eliminates any evidence that they knew?
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
What if the reaction is to refuse to sign, thinking that it eliminates any evidence that they knew?

Then I state that on the form. I can't force them to sign anything. But filling it out certainly lets them know I'm serious about it.

If they sue me, then I guess it's up to them to prove their case against me.
 
480
I think that for you have is very antagonistic. I think you need to find a nicer way to get the point across.

Sparky You got a problem. I bet most Electricians or handyman would have replaced with what was there and said good to go. Be nice stand your ground.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
I would replace the breaker with the correct size and state on the invoice why.
I would also state that the breaker could possibly trip now because the correct breaker is of a lower ampacity.

I would also state that the other circuit breakers are oversized as well and present a fire hazard. I would get a signature on this showing that the owner was made aware of the situation.

I would then refer them to this website and have the link listed on the invoice.
http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm#bannertop

They have the information now and it's up to them to decide what they want to do.
I will only do what I feel is a safe installation and meets code.
Aluminum wiring has enough problems without overloading it.

Good advice.
 
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