When doodles go bad

When doodles go bad

  • Omit the receptacle

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Place the receptacle in the adjacent area "behind the sink"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Cut the receptacle in anyway, code is code

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Surface-mount a receptacle on the face of the tile

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
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George Stolz

George Stolz

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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
Occupation
Hospital Master Electrician
A kitchen has a sink in the corner. This corner is also the corner of the house. This sink is surrounded by a window on either side, about 8" or so from the corner. There is a receptacle installed roughly 30" from each corner, to cover the beginning of the countertops next to the sink, as required by figure 210.52.

There is 17" of "usable" counter space in this corner; measuring back 18" and sliding side to side perpendicular to the back of the sink. Being a load bearing corner, with a window immediately next to it, the corner is full of lumber.

By figure 210.52, we are required to install a receptacle there.
By 210.52(C)(5), the area immediately outside this 17" of wall counter space is behind a sink, and therefore cannot be considered suitable for a receptacle to serve the 17" space.
By physics, I can't cut out three out of five 2x4's and allow my box to bear the weight of the corner.
 
Omit the receptacle. I have a feeling the building inspector would back you up if you got into a match with the electrical inspector. You can't cut out load bearing studs.

My $.02
 
Just to play devil's advocate.

Where does it say that the receptacles need to be "cut into" the wall. Why can't the AHJ require the use of a surface mounted box?
 
I was once called in to re-do the electrical for a kitchen remodel that was done illegally (unlicensed installer, no permit pulled). The homeowner's neighbor turned him in. I met with the homeowner and the inspector, and he required a receptacle to be installed to meet the spacing requirements. The wall behind the countertop was solid brick.

No one said you had to cut into load-bearing timber. You always have the option of mounting the receptacle on the surface of the wall. Granted, it would not be aesthetically pleasing, but it would meet code.
 
George: I need to ask you to clarify this.
  • Looking at Figure 210.52, are you saying that the value of "X" is 18 inches (not "less than 18 inches")?
  • Is this an actual installation or an academic discussion?
  • If it is a real installation, and if the problem disappears if "X" were to be less than 18 inches, can you cleverly adjust the way it is measured (e.g., to the nearest point of sink's horizontal flange, not the hole where water goes)?
  • Can you have the homeowner install a baseboard across the wall behind the sink, so that the distance "X" becomes less than 18 inches?
 
I like that power grommet idea. At $127.00 ea. Plus mark-up =$177.00 and the $200.00 install fee plus what ever the counter top guys get for cutting the mounting hole in granite. The owners will be able to show this little gadget off as the most expensive receptacle in the neighborhood. For some reason I don't think that a builder would go for it. However I know just the type of idiots that would buy such a product. Can't wait to pitch this idea to some of them.
 
beach front all granite tops, big windows, no uppers, one kitchen has 4 of these and they think they were cheep compared to losing any view to window posts with receps..

another where they used them on islands

when the house goes for $800,000+ they don't care about the cost
 
When the house goes for $800,000.00+ they don't care about cost
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I wish this were true but it's not always the case. The most expensive house that I've worked on cost a little over twelve million to build. They imported the stone from Italy, tile from France and bath fixtures from Germany at a cost that most people wouldn't believe. But when it came time for a few additional electrical items ( I didn't wire the house originally ) you would have thought you were dealing with Scrooge himself. This is just my opinion but I don't think the cost of the house is as important as the personality of the owner. If you can stroke their ego then you will make a sell, that's why they drive European sports cars or Hummers but they also have illegal aliens for gardeners and maids so they can pay minimum wage ( if that ). If it will impress someone then cost doesn't count but if it's purely functional then get the cheapest thing ever made.
 
m73214 said:
I believe option #4 would be disallowed by 406.4 (E)
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:twisted: Are you saying tile wall above counter is work surface? Gee I want to see you working.

Actually without better understanding of situation I don't know what he is talking about with that option, but I was thinking wall space. :)
 
Here is a sketch. This is a real installation. This is how I've been interpretting figure 210.52, and what I was originally envisioning when I wrote the original post.



As I was drawing this, I believe I've come to a new conclusion. The figure presents us with a "Yes or No" situation: Either the distance is over 18", or it isn't. If it is, then there is no grey area beside the sink.

The counter behind the sink, even the sink itself, become wall counter space requiring an outlet. So, it isn't a line on each side of the sink, extending back to the wall as a break in the 2'/4' rule. The 2'4' rule becomes continuous, all the way around the sink as though the sink doesn't exist at all.

Therefore, a receptacle could be installed outside the "blue dotted triangle" in my diagram, and still be serving the space inside the triangle.

If we install a receptacle behind a range by accident (normal countertop), we cannot consider it serving counterspace inches away. With an outcropping or a corner "break in the wall space," then we can. The countertop becomes continuous.

m73214 said:
I believe option #4 would be disallowed by 406.4 (E)
Click to expand...
No, I was referring to surface mounting a receptacle on the wall, inside the "blue triangle" in my diagram.
 
George,

What about 210.52(C)(4) the way I see it if it were a range top instead of a sink an outlet would not be required.

What you think?
 
George, you have the 18 inch dimension at the wrong location. Compare your sketch to Figure 210.52. In the NEC Figure, the 18 inch dimension (designated in the Figure as "X") goes to the corner.

In your figure, the distance between the corner point and the midpoint of the hypotenuse of your blue triangle is about 6 inches (8.5 divided by the square root of 2). That means that the line segments that you show as 18 inches should be shown as 12 inches.
 
benaround said:
. . . the way I see it if it were a range top instead of a sink an outlet would not be required. . . . What you think?
Click to expand...
I can't speak for George, but I can see someone reaching across a sink to turn on a radio that they placed in that corner space. But I can't see someone reaching across a stove to do the same thing.
 
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