When *should* an AFCI trip?

Fred B said:
The Arc signature could be coming from any source not just the tripping circuit, just the load needed to be present.
Had random tripping on a Siemens panel that was found to be linked to a cheap Chinese unlisted junk the HO was using that was back feeding dirty signals into the system and what ever circuit was "loaded" it would trip.
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Well poop on a stick... if an AFCI breaker will trip because of loads on a completely different circuit, then what the bug are the things even good for in the first place!?! I don't have much hair left to pull out, and if chasing down my misbehaving fridge circuit means pulling out every single device in the house looking for a floating ground (which was the cause behind a two-bedroom MWBC tripping every time I turned on the kitchen lights immediately after the panel swap)... aaiieeee!!!
 
ModbusMan said:
Well poop on a stick... if an AFCI breaker will trip because of loads on a completely different circuit, then what the bug are the things even good for in the first place!?! I don't have much hair left to pull out, and if chasing down my misbehaving fridge circuit means pulling out every single device in the house looking for a floating ground (which was the cause behind a two-bedroom MWBC tripping every time I turned on the kitchen lights immediately after the panel swap)... aaiieeee!!!
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Not from the load actually arcing but from a dirty wave form caused by the unlisted Chinese garbage that is coming back onto the system and being seen by the AFCI as an arc signature on an unrelated loaded circuit. At one time even shortwave radio would trip them but not so much anymore but does still happen. (Report: Every time the trooper drove by it would trip an AFCI.)
 
ModbusMan said:
Well poop on a stick... if an AFCI breaker will trip because of loads on a completely different circuit, then what the bug are the things even good for in the first place!?! I don't have much hair left to pull out, and if chasing down my misbehaving fridge circuit means pulling out every single device in the house looking for a floating ground (which was the cause behind a two-bedroom MWBC tripping every time I turned on' the kitchen lights immediately after the panel swap)... aaiieeee!!!
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Not picking on you but I'm quite surprised that so many people are only now coming to this realization. AFCIs have been around twenty years and they have always been a fraud.
 
Fred B said:
Not from the load actually arcing but from a dirty wave form caused by the unlisted Chinese garbage that is coming back onto the system and being seen by the AFCI as an arc signature on an unrelated loaded circuit. At one time even shortwave radio would trip them but not so much anymore but does still happen. (Report: Every time the trooper drove by it would trip an AFCI.)
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It's not limited to poor quality items. Plenty of big ticket items from Japan, Korea, United States, and other places in the world cause nuisance trips on AFCIs. I've seen name brand power tools and new appliances trip them for no good reason.
 
ActionDave said:
It's not limited to poor quality items. Plenty of big ticket items from Japan, Korea, United States, and other places in the world cause nuisance trips on AFCIs. I've seen name brand power tools and new appliances trip them for no good reason.
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Not to doubt your experience but that is not mine. Most every time that had investigated complaint of AFCI tripping by "Legitimate" tool or equipment I have found loose connections that once corrected no longer tripping the AFCI by the the tool or equipment. Older AFCI were far more problematic for nuisance tripping, was told the use of toroid rings help some. Had an old inspector that would hand them out by the handful. Whether they still would help on new AFCI don't know.
 
ActionDave said:
Not picking on you but I'm quite surprised that so many people are only now coming to this realization. AFCIs have been around twenty years and they have always been a fraud.
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Fraud or not, it's the fact that something on a completely different circuit can trip the things that boggles the mind.
 
ModbusMan said:
Fraud or not, it's the fact that something on a completely different circuit can trip the things that boggles the mind.
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Not really when you consider things like motor loads can contribute to the potential onto the system when it is turned off and still winding down. Motor momentarily turns into a generator.

Also seen the electric wires in a house act as an antennae and have RF present and that sometimes can trip the AFCI. So even though the electrical system is at 60Hz here you can get multiple of that frequency from motor contribution or radio interference. And if the frequency is at a presumed level and duration determined by the breaker mfg that matches their assumption of an Arc frequency it will trip the AFCI breaker.
 
Fred B said:
Not really when you consider things like motor loads can contribute to the potential onto the system when it is turned off and still winding down. Motor momentarily turns into a generator.

Also seen the electric wires in a house act as an antennae and have RF present and that sometimes can trip the AFCI. So even though the electrical system is at 60Hz here you can get multiple of that frequency from motor contribution or radio interference. And if the frequency is at a presumed level and duration determined by the breaker mfg that matches their assumption of an Arc frequency it will trip the AFCI breaker.
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The fact that the mechanisms that cause nuisance tripping are so obvious further entrenches my position that these things are a fraud. The manufacturers are just as aware of these things as we are, yet they either can’t or won’t address the issues, or by addressing them, make them even less likely to do what they’re supposed to do. That’s the “mind boggling” part.
 
the fact that the AFCI manufactures are saying that their arc detection software knows the normal operating arc signature of every appliance that currently exists and every new appliance that will come to exist within the life of the AFCI tells me that this is just not possible.
 
I've replaced lots of stabbed switches that were buzzing and arcing, lights flickering; but AFCI breaker never tripped. Seen other circuits with no issued I could find that kept tripping the breakers.

We need a massive riot at NFPA headquarters. Torches, pitchforks, bricks and bottles. They shoved this crap down our throats and then we get blamed when things go wrong.
 
retirede said:
The fact that the mechanisms that cause nuisance tripping are so obvious further entrenches my position that these things are a fraud. The manufacturers are just as aware of these things as we are, yet they either can’t or won’t address the issues, or by addressing them, make them even less likely to do what they’re supposed to do. That’s the “mind boggling” part.
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The manufactures either wormed or bullied their way into the most sweetheart deal ever- Force the general public to buy a product that has an exponentially higher markup than a normal breaker and make those buyers the beta testers of the technology.
 
ActionDave said:
The manufactures either wormed or bullied their way into the most sweetheart deal ever- Force the general public to buy a product that has an exponentially higher markup than a normal breaker and make those buyers the beta testers of the technology.
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I'm pretty sure they bribed code officials in some way. Not that it would take much bribing. Authorities love rules, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they solve anything.
 
jmellc said:
I'm pretty sure they bribed code officials in some way. Not that it would take much bribing. Authorities love rules, the more the better. Doesn't matter if they solve anything.
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I really doubt that...the code is written by the volunteer members of the code making panels. No code officials involved other than the CMP members that make up the enforcement interest group on the code panels.
 
jmellc said:
I've replaced lots of stabbed switches that were buzzing and arcing, lights flickering; but AFCI breaker never tripped. Seen other circuits with no issued I could find that kept tripping the breakers.

We need a massive riot at NFPA headquarters. Torches, pitchforks, bricks and bottles. They shoved this crap down our throats and then we get blamed when things go wrong.
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We need to go into NFPA headquarters and make as many poor connections as we can in attempt to create several arcing and glowing connections on their wiring systems within the facility and connect them all to AFCI's that won't trip in response to this.
 
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