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Where does it come from?

topgone

Senior Member
I've always used MFD=(2650*I)/E to see if a capacitor was good prior to meters that would read MFD directly.
I've forgotten or maybe never knew where the 2650 comes from?
Anyone?
It comes from the formula for capacitance Xc= 1/(2 x pi x freq x C), C in Farads, and the voltage across the capacitor E = I x Xc.
In microfarads, the factor becomes 1,000,000 uF per Farad/ (2 x 3.1416 x 60 Hz) = 2653 ~ 2650!
I suggest you don't use this factor as the utility supply voltage varies +/- 10% and the peak voltage of the sine input is 1.414 times the RMS value. I'd divide 2650 by 1.56 (1.1 x 1.414) -->factor becomes 1,704.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
It comes from the formula for capacitance Xc= 1/(2 x pi x freq x C), C in Farads, and the voltage across the capacitor E = I x Xc.
In microfarads, the factor becomes 1,000,000 uF per Farad/ (2 x 3.1416 x 60 Hz) = 2653 ~ 2650!
I suggest you don't use this factor as the utility supply voltage varies +/- 10% and the peak voltage of the sine input is 1.414 times the RMS value. I'd divide 2650 by 1.56 (1.1 x 1.414) -->factor becomes 1,704.
The formula supposedly is good for +- 10%. I used applied voltage while under load and generally it was via a 24 volt transformer. it was good enough for field work. A step up from a continuity tester.

I will give yours a shot and see how it compares with my old Fluke 43B results.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
We have large 100 hp 3 phase motors at our company with large starters without drives but no capacitors.

In one of my motor books it talks about different scenarios of installing capacitors parallel between all three phases but whether you install it upstream or downstream of starter yielded different results

I forgot how to calculate the proper size capacitor to get power factor closest to 1
1708520393879.png
A spreadsheet one of our are POCOs offered when they started to require PFC
 

topgone

Senior Member
We have large 100 hp 3 phase motors at our company with large starters without drives but no capacitors.

In one of my motor books it talks about different scenarios of installing capacitors parallel between all three phases but whether you install it upstream or downstream of starter yielded different results

I forgot how to calculate the proper size capacitor to get power factor closest to 1
You don't need to correct your power factor to 1. The lowest PF that can be allowed before you'll be penalized by the PoCo is 0.85 (at least in my place). That said, target final PF should be greater than 0.85, depending on what capacitor bank is readily available in the market. IMO, a 100 HP motor with a PF of 0.8 needs a 10 kVAr cap bank to be able to bring up the PF above 0.85 PF. There are lots of available worksheets from motor manufacturers for you to use.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
You don't need to correct your power factor to 1. The lowest PF that can be allowed before you'll be penalized by the PoCo is 0.85 (at least in my place). That said, target final PF should be greater than 0.85, depending on what capacitor bank is readily available in the market. IMO, a 100 HP motor with a PF of 0.8 needs a 10 kVAr cap bank to be able to bring up the PF above 0.85 PF. There are lots of available worksheets from motor manufacturers for you to use.
They want PF corrected to .95 or better around here, in situations where they require correction anyway. Which for the POCO I tend to deal with the most it is any installation with a 50 HP motor or larger.

Have farmers with irrigation wells typically 60, 75 and 100 HP motors and correction is required on all those. Same POCO with service supplying grain storage in the corner of same quarter section of land has twelve 20 HP aeration motors plus dryer system that totals around 100 HP of motors but the largest motor in the bunch is only 40 HP. No power factor correction on the entire install is required.

Make sense of that.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
They want PF corrected to .95 or better around here, in situations where they require correction anyway. Which for the POCO I tend to deal with the most it is any installation with a 50 HP motor or larger.

Have farmers with irrigation wells typically 60, 75 and 100 HP motors and correction is required on all those. Same POCO with service supplying grain storage in the corner of same quarter section of land has twelve 20 HP aeration motors plus dryer system that totals around 100 HP of motors but the largest motor in the bunch is only 40 HP. No power factor correction on the entire install is required.

Make sense of that.
Time of year. Peak consumption is summertime for us.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Time of year. Peak consumption is summertime for us.
Same here, though sometimes they still running fans in summer, depends when they take the grain to a market. Had years where they are clearing out bins in August because they will be needing storage for the upcoming harvest, and others they are already starting to unload shortly after harvest is done.
Customers should weigh the cost of PFC installation vs cost of operation. In past years POCOs just looked to see if one was there. Now they know if it's functioning and at what level. A well designed system operating at .89 may not be worth the effort to get it above .90.
POCO here sends out letters in off season to anyone that has too low of a PF. Almost always because of a failed capacitor. Little surprised they don't send them out shortly after discovery. It says on the letter what the penalty is but is a cost per horsepower and not sure if it means per month per season, or just what it actually is. I never have tried to determine if it is worth it for user to keep up the correction or to just pay the penalty. Seem to recall thinking it may be somewhat close to same cost either way though. Just worded in a way to encourage providing the correction.
 

grich

Senior Member
Location
MP89.5, Mason City Subdivision
Occupation
Broadcast Engineer
and I'll bet I can just series a few for 480. Nice find!













and if you believe either statement, well I just don't know. :rolleyes::cry::eek:
My SIL gave me one for Christmas. She mentioned her husband told her they were a scammy piece of crap, but what could it hurt? I was very polite about it. I said thank you, not mentioning any possible PF savings would be eaten up by energy used in the LED circuit inside. My wife eagerly threw it away when we got home.
 

topgone

Senior Member
Customers should weigh the cost of PFC installation vs cost of operation. In past years POCOs just looked to see if one was there. Now they know if it's functioning and at what level. A well designed system operating at .89 may not be worth the effort to get it above .90.
Correct. It's the POCOs who benefit not the customers -->lower MVAR demand charges from generating plants and lesser system loss! If utilities do not penalize customers with very low PFs, customers won't correct their PFs. Besides, the PFC costs rise exponentially beyond 0.85.
They want PF corrected to .95 or better around here, in situations where they require correction anyway. Which for the POCO I tend to deal with the most it is any installation with a 50 HP motor or larger.

Have farmers with irrigation wells typically 60, 75 and 100 HP motors and correction is required on all those. Same POCO with service supplying grain storage in the corner of same quarter section of land has twelve 20 HP aeration motors plus dryer system that totals around 100 HP of motors but the largest motor in the bunch is only 40 HP. No power factor correction on the entire install is required.

Make sense of that.
I did a quick calculation and the results tell me that if we compare the costs when correcting up to a PF=0.85 versus the costs incurred correcting up to 0.95, it's about 400% more expensive than targeting a PF=0.85. But those don't matter if you have lots of money to burn!
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I've always used MFD=(2650*I)/E to see if a capacitor was good prior to meters that would read MFD directly.
I've forgotten or maybe never knew where the 2650 comes from?
Anyone?

You have to calculate capacitive reactance
the formula for this is
Xc = 1 / (2*pi*hz*farad)

Xc = 1 / (2*3.1415 (pi)*60 (hz)*farad)

Xc = 0.0026527 * farad

farad = 1,000,000 microfarads

you have to multiply .0026527 by 1,000,000 to convert to mf.

Xc = 0.0026527 * 1,000,000
so..
Xc = 2652.7

E = I*2653

(2653*I)/V


note 2653, not 2650
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Correct. It's the POCOs who benefit not the customers -->lower MVAR demand charges from generating plants and lesser system loss! If utilities do not penalize customers with very low PFs, customers won't correct their PFs. Besides, the PFC costs rise exponentially beyond 0.85.

I did a quick calculation and the results tell me that if we compare the costs when correcting up to a PF=0.85 versus the costs incurred correcting up to 0.95, it's about 400% more expensive than targeting a PF=0.85. But those don't matter if you have lots of money to burn!
But did you factor in any fees charged by POCO for too low of power factor? I didn't give specific penalty for my situation because I don't recall exactly what it was.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Same here, though sometimes they still running fans in summer, depends when they take the grain to a market. Had years where they are clearing out bins in August because they will be needing storage for the upcoming harvest, and others they are already starting to unload shortly after harvest is done.

POCO here sends out letters in off season to anyone that has too low of a PF. Almost always because of a failed capacitor. Little surprised they don't send them out shortly after discovery. It says on the letter what the penalty is but is a cost per horsepower and not sure if it means per month per season, or just what it actually is. I never have tried to determine if it is worth it for user to keep up the correction or to just pay the penalty. Seem to recall thinking it may be somewhat close to same cost either way though. Just worded in a way to encourage providing the correction.

your POCO charges poor pf according to hp?? Who inventories the motors in a residence for charging?

most charge by kVarh. Somewhere around $.08 per..
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Not residential. Not single phase.
New metering has the ability to read PF. Irrigation is the prime target.
Ah yes. Missed something in reading…

we target irrigation, sawmills, and small industrial. They wont spend the money to fix their poor pf..
 
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