White conductor as a hot.

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jameselectric

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Did it become illegal to use the white conductor of romex cable as an ungrounded conductor in the 2008 code? I know they do it alot in residential for the 240 v water heaters. Someone claim that they change the code on it but i dont see it.
 
No changes to the rule that allows a white in a cable to be reidentified as a hot conductor, black, red or other.
See 220.7C
 
Only problem i keep seeing is the lack of most to do the second half and mark it.Personally i wish inspectors inforced it.Seem very few keep up on the codes or follow them.Those of us that are here most every day are rare.I dought 90% of so called journeymen even own a code book and even less look at it.Mine is part of my tools.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Only problem i keep seeing is the lack of most to do the second half and mark it.Personally i wish inspectors inforced it.Seem very few keep up on the codes or follow them.Those of us that are here most every day are rare.I dought 90% of so called journeymen even own a code book and even less look at it.Mine is part of my tools.
I hear you Brother! If I see a White conductor on a breaker,after a couple of hours and a few phone calls I'll figure out that it's probally a ungrounded conductor.Wait let me check the forum to varify that...yep It's confirmed it might be hot. lol:D
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Only problem i keep seeing is the lack of most to do the second half and mark it.Personally i wish inspectors inforced it.Seem very few keep up on the codes or follow them.

I can tell you the inspectors here enforce it. Even if you are working on something unrelated they still make you fix it. A little tape and its done. I even have seen it show up on home inspection reports.

c2500
 
Jim
I agree it would be nice if all work was performed to the ultimate.

In defense of the hard working electricians out there who may not cover every base, I will explain what I perceive as part of the issue with code compliance.

First lets take the inspector out of the equation.

The electrician will have a code book. He opens and reads the code, but has not had much if any formal training in how to use the code book.
So he starts to look for the information, and on very limited time. He cannot readily find the info, as he is not familiar with the format/organization of the NEC. Some do not even know how to apply an exception.
So he finally finds the area he is looking for, at least he thinks he has. His frustration is mounting (as in the back of his mind he has already set himself up for failing to find the info), and he starts to read. His lack of code language understanding (definitions) and most likely his reading skills may be lacking as well, lead him into a tailspin that frustrates him completely. He puts (more likely throws) the code down and procedes to install the job the way he has for years.


I have been teaching field electricians long enough to understand (and sympathize) with their frustrations in the use of the NEC. I have a class that is called Proper Understanding of the NEC with the Use of the UL White Book.
This class is an eye opener for most in the class. I cannot tell you how mad these guys get in this class in regards as to the language used in the NEC.

When the training of electricians becomes a standard across this country, that is when the installations will become more consistant in the better quality of work.
 
Karl H said:
I hear you Brother! If I see a White conductor on a breaker,after a couple of hours and a few phone calls I'll figure out that it's probally a ungrounded conductor.Wait let me check the forum to varify that...yep It's confirmed it might be hot. lol:D
Hey it might be a corner grounded delta.
 
quogueelectric said:
Hey it might be a corner grounded delta.
Nope I checked the Forum.They said,"If a white conductor is connnected to the load side of a breaker it is now an ungrounded conductor." They also said;"If its taped orange It's the High Leg from a Delta.and to call a qualified electrician."I just do what I'm told.:D Karl<~~~~~~~~~~~~ runs to get coffee
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Jim
I agree it would be nice if all work was performed to the ultimate.

In defense of the hard working electricians out there who may not cover every base, I will explain what I perceive as part of the issue with code compliance.

First lets take the inspector out of the equation.

The electrician will have a code book. He opens and reads the code, but has not had much if any formal training in how to use the code book.
So he starts to look for the information, and on very limited time. He cannot readily find the info, as he is not familiar with the format/organization of the NEC. Some do not even know how to apply an exception.
So he finally finds the area he is looking for, at least he thinks he has. His frustration is mounting (as in the back of his mind he has already set himself up for failing to find the info), and he starts to read. His lack of code language understanding (definitions) and most likely his reading skills may be lacking as well, lead him into a tailspin that frustrates him completely. He puts (more likely throws) the code down and proceeds to install the job the way he has for years.


I have been teaching field electricians long enough to understand (and sympathize) with their frustrations in the use of the NEC. I have a class that is called Proper Understanding of the NEC with the Use of the UL White Book.
This class is an eye opener for most in the class. I cannot tell you how mad these guys get in this class in regards as to the language used in the NEC.

When the training of electricians becomes a standard across this country, that is when the installations will become more consistent in the better quality of work.


You hit the nail on the head with that. I con only add that it is becoming more common that the grasp of the English language is less then it could be with some installers. Many areas don't have very thorough inspections , but that is no excuse for a lack of knowledge of the codes. I just hope that the requirement for training becomes required and available in all states.
 
One thing has been proved and thats that so called wantabe electricians wont tape or reidentify untill they get a red tag.Some are lazy some ignorant but result is the same.If the inspectors on this forum push this starting today i bet they write some tags
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
One thing has been proved and thats that so called wantabe electricians wont tape or reidentify untill they get a red tag.Some are lazy some ignorant but result is the same.If the inspectors on this forum push this starting today i bet they write some tags

I write it here and write it and write it. It also goes for the grounded and grounding conductors, one little piece of white or green tape on a piece of 500 KCMIL stuffed in the back of a panel is not really meeting the intent.
 
I think it was Mike Holt himself that said.....(not a quote).....something like......If you grab the code book only to try and prove you actions are compliant, chances are you have already messed up. I see what Mr Belarge is saying, but I still say If you choose to be in this trade, it comes with a certain amount of responsibility. It should be fair for an inspector to expect an electrician to have a working knowledge of the NEC and not only grab it in "panick Mode".
 
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