White Ungrounded Wire

[LarryFine]

Isn't a neutral always required to be run with a switch loop, unless the wiring method is conduit?

I'm suggesting that, for interior lighting, yes; for general-use, fused switches, and the like, no.

Interior lighting switch boxes needs a grounded conductor for occupancy sensors, timers, etc.

Other switch boxes need them if the switch itself does, or if the load is fed through the switch.

 

[electrofelon]

I'm suggesting that, for interior lighting, yes; for general-use, fused switches, and the like, no.

Interior lighting switch boxes needs a grounded conductor for occupancy sensors, timers, etc.

Other switch boxes need them if the switch itself does, or if the load is fed through the switch.

Yes certainly I agree, lighting loads, not necessarily all switches.

 

[infinity]

I'm suggesting that, for interior lighting, yes; for general-use, fused switches, and the like, no

What code section would allow the fused disconnect switch to not have the neutral run through it?

 

[LarryFine]

What code section would allow the fused disconnect switch to not have the neutral run through it?

What code section would require it? Remember, the NEC is a "permissive" code.

Electrically, this is a two-wire switch loop. What function would a neutral serve?

If line in and line out were in different raceways, then the neutral would have to be run with them.

 

[infinity]

What code section would require it? Remember, the NEC is a "permissive" code.

Electrically, this is a two-wire switch loop. What function would a neutral serve?

If line in and line out were in different raceways, then the neutral would have to be run with them.

I don't have the book with me but from memory the exception to not bring the neutral down to a switch does not apply to disconnect switches.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What code section would allow the fused disconnect switch to not have the neutral run through it?

While it is possible that the fused disconnect switch controls "lighting loads that are supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit serving bathrooms, hallways, stairways, and habitable rooms or occupiable spaces as defined in the applicable building code", that is unlikely.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't have the book with me but from memory the exception to not bring the neutral down to a switch does not apply to disconnect switches.

List item (1) in 404.2(C) would not require the neutral at this switch even if it does control the specified loads.

 

[LarryFine]

I don't have the book with me but from memory the exception to not bring the neutral down to a switch does not apply to disconnect switches.

It doesn't need to, because the requirement to do so does not apply to disconnect switches.

The requirement is for interior lighting, and the exceptions apply to multiple switches in the same space.

 

[electrofelon]

It doesn't need to, because the requirement to do so does not apply to disconnect switches.

The requirement is for interior lighting, and the exceptions apply to multiple switches in the same space.

I'm going to disagree that it " does not apply to disconnect switches". I will Grant you that it OFTEN does not apply to disconnect switches. The requirement does not mention anything about the equipment, it is about the load served by the equipment.

 

[CoolWill]

I would bet that this is a case where the switch was needed but only a fused switch was on hand, so a fuse was inserted to complete the circuit. As far as requiring a neutral, there is no equipment that can go in this box that would need it. In any case, the wiring method is conduit, so it shouldn't matter even if this switch serves a lighting load. I think the only real code violation is the white wire, which, in my opinion isn't really an issue in the grand scheme of things. If I were an inspector that was this, I'd probably just close the door and give them a thumbs up and drive away.

 

[ptonsparky]

I would bet that this is a case where the switch was needed but only a fused switch was on hand, so a fuse was inserted to complete the circuit. As far as requiring a neutral, there is no equipment that can go in this box that would need it. In any case, the wiring method is conduit, so it shouldn't matter even if this switch serves a lighting load. I think the only real code violation is the white wire, which, in my opinion isn't really an issue in the grand scheme of things. If I were an inspector that was this, I'd probably just close the door and give them a thumbs up and drive away.

I'd go, an electrician with out at least a piece of colored tape? You're out of colored conductor? No marker?

Come prepared Sparky.
Tag it for a reinspection.

 

[xguard]

Other than use of the white conductor there, I could see a feeder tap being done this way in some situations.

the #12 supplying switch is a feeder tap.

 

[xguard]

This disconnect is for an exhaust fan. The line side #12 is a tap from a 50 amp circuit.

 

[CoolWill]

This disconnect is for an exhaust fan. The line side #12 is a tap from a 50 amp circuit.

Just color the white wire with a Sharpie and let it ride. It's nothing to lose much sleep over.

 

[kwired]

Yes certainly I agree, lighting loads, not necessarily all switches.

The rules been tweaked a little depending on which NEC edition applies but common thing in all editions since this was a thing is it is required for switch locations controlling lighting outlets that operate with a grounded conductor. Luminaires operating only on ungrounded conductors would not require the grounded conductor at switching locations if the switch(es) directly controls the luminaire(s). Like maybe a 480 volt luminaire. Switches controlling non lighting loads do not need a grounded conductor at the switch location, as a general rule.

 

[infinity]

What code section would allow the fused disconnect switch to not have the neutral run through it?

What code section would require it?

300.3(B) requires that each raceway contain both the hot and neutral conductors which is certainly not the way the installation in the photo is installed since the neutral is not run with the ungrounded conductor to the switch. This is no the same as a switch loop with a 2-wire cable running to a single pole switch.

300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit.
All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

 

[kwired]

300.3(B) requires that each raceway contain both the hot and neutral conductors which is certainly not the way the installation in the photo is installed since the neutral is not run with the ungrounded conductor to the switch. This is no the same as a switch loop with a 2-wire cable running to a single pole switch.

The intent of 300.3(B) is so that the magnetic fields around the conductors will cancel one another and not have any impact on the impedance of those conductors or have other magnetic effects on ferrous raceways which there is permitted exemptions in the subsections of 300.3(B) and non ferrous raceways is on of those.

In a "switch loop" it is only necessary to bring the conductors being switched to the switch location. If the switch supply and return conductor are in same raceway or cable, the magnetic effects cancel one another and you did bring all the conductors of that segment of the circuit through the raceway or cable. Only reason to bring a grounded conductor to the switch in such a loop is to satisfy the requirements in 404.2(C). OP's fused safety switch is not one of those situations.

 

[wwhitney]

As the #12 is a tap conductor, the fuse is the branch circuit OCPD. So if this were a MWBC (which would obviously mean 2 or 3 fuses), then 210.4(A) would require that "All conductors of a multiwire branch circuit shall originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment." In which case if you consider the fused disconnect "distribution equipment," (not sure if it is or not), the neutral conductor would need to loop through the disconnect. But for 2-wire branch circuits, I'm not aware of any comparable requirement.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LarryFine]

This is no the same as a switch loop with a 2-wire cable running to a single pole switch.

Yes, it is exactly the same thing.

 

[tortuga]

This disconnect is for an exhaust fan. The line side #12 is a tap from a 50 amp circuit.

Whomever crawled all the way in there at 3:45 on a friday was like oh darn I grabbed white wire well nobodys ever going to crawl back in here. Now its on MH forums.
The location and accessibility of that fuse seems less than ideal from the photo it looks like its in a unfinished attic, hopefully its in not in the vicinity of easily ignigtable material 240.24(D).

I'd also be concerned about the connections at the fan? Do two white wires end up at the motor?