White wires as travelers on 3-way

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johndeereman

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When using a multiwire cable assembly, and following the requirements of article 200.7 C2, can the white wires be used as travelers from switch to switch? :roll:
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

I'm having a disagreement with an inspector that feels the later part of Art-200.7(C)(2) the traveler is now the return conductor to the switched outlet when in fact it is just going from switch to switch.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

the traveler is now the return conductor to the switched outlet
Click to expand...
Just remind him that at the other 3-way it is the feed to the switch and call it even. :D

I don't see where it could be call a return from a light outlet when it does not come from any outlet. as you stated it runs from switch to switch and does not violate the intent of why 200.7(C)(2) was put in the NEC. which is only there to keep from having two whites at the light outlet.

not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet
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The wording is deciveing as the wire from the switch to the outlet would be the supply wire and not a return. The return wire would not go to a switch in the first place as it is the grounded conductor of the circuit. and this would be a violation of 404.2(A)

Maybe a good place for a perposal to clear this up?
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

when in fact it is just going from switch to switch.
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I like that part :D , but it must do something more than that.

From 200.7(C)(2) [used for the supply to the switch]

is the only qualifier. My immediate interpretation of that is, supply to the first switch. But, after further reflection, I can see somebody thinking of the energized traveller as supplying the next switch. I don't think that is the intent, but who am I?

From 200.7(C)(2) [but not]

[as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet]

also seems to imply that the section is not discussing travellers.

I think if your inspector wants to plant his flag there the wording can be construed his way.

If it were me I think I would be saying "that's not what that section means ya know" as I was putting black tape on the ends of the wires. :D

Edit: Changed my code references to the right one.

[ February 08, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Originally posted by johndeereman:
...it is just going from switch to switch.
Click to expand...
Yeah, there's nothing against it. It's pretty clear the way I see it: "...is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet." If the conductor running from the switch to the outlet is not white, it's legal.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

I have been in the trade for about 23yrs. & in all my years I have never had a call as this. When I talked to him about this he stated that this is the way he & his counterparts "Interpret" the code. I feel that the Code is to be taken for what it says. THANKS FOR YOUR GUYS INPUT.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

I wonder how your inspector views running a 12/2 NMB cable to a 240v receptacle and marking the white conductor black or red at the breake and receptacle. Mike Holt's "Understanding the NEC 2002" has a very excellent drawing on page 48 of volume-1 that would be good to show the inspector.

[ February 08, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: grant ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

200.7(C)(2) also addresses four way switches, but there are nothing but travellers going to it. In my opinion, this is permitted.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

They need to be re-identified per 200.7(C)(1). See 210.5.

So the answer to you question is yes, or blue or orange or purple with pink polka dots. Just not green or white. :)

Editted to correct reference.

[ February 11, 2005, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

In response to "Grant" yes I asked that very question. The answer was very vague & he said that this is not what they are saying. In response to "Ryan" This whole scenario is a 4-way system in which I ran a two wire from both 3-ways to the 4-way & reidentified the white wires as required & when I brought this to their attention they said that the white wire has to be hot constantly.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

This code really explicitly addresses what I would call a farmer switch, others call it a dead end switch. Power is taken to the outlet first, and a two-wire is pulled to a switch. The white wire leaving the outlet must be the supply to the switch, the black wire must be the return, per 200.7. This is what this has reference to. (This type of switching can be extended to threeway or fourway applications if desired; just pull a threewire from the switch to another switch, you've got a threeway from the farmer. The white is tied through to the common on the other side, and the black wire to the switched outlet becomes the common of the close side.)

It is explicitly a relationship between an outlet and a switch, not between switches. They are seeing what they want to see. If it was as your inspectors view it, it would not be referred to as "the switch." It would be more appropriately called "any or a switch."

Try explaining it to them in that context, maybe they'll see it.

With that aside, I have learned here that two-wire threeways are a bad idea, and should be avoided. They generate EMF that can interfere with computers, cause cancer, etc. :)
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Originally posted by johndeereman:
...I brought this to their attention they said that the white wire has to be hot constantly.
Click to expand...
In a four way switch this is an impossibility. If the "single pole, 3-way, 4-way" reference was in regards to the travellers, they would have to delete "4-way" from this reference to make it mesh with the inspector's thinking. There is no fixed supply to a four way switch. The "white wire hot constantly" is in direct opposition to the wording of this code. :D
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Johndeereman and George,

Does this:

when I brought this to their attention they said that the white wire has to be hot constantly.
Click to expand...
mean that this is when the white conductor has to be reidentified?
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

No Wayne, I wasn't at the meeting. All I meant was your post snuck in while I was typing. I can't wait to hear any stories, if there are any, from Charlie though.

But if I was............ :D
 
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