Who is at fault?

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cschmid

Senior Member
I also agree that this was handled improperly and I also believe the cost to you is gonna be very substantial. I do not want you to get me wrong here I am not on the insulators side. I believe if this was handled differently you could of made extra money and been promoted by the other trades on the job site and this in return would of improved your chances on other jobs as well. Now you have to reestablish your creditability with everyone on the site and suffer the bad mouthing you are gonna get. I did not look to see where you are from but this is gonna hurt for several weeks and maybe even longer.I am just trying to be truthful here not condescending or anything like that. I do hope you can tread this issue gracefully to were it benefits your company.
 

daleuger

Senior Member
Location
earth
Some of the larger jobs I've worked on had locks on the panels just for this very reason. Probably not good if something went awry with people on the job after we go home but that wasn't my call. :roll:
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Here's some OSHA Reg's, Texas does not have a State OSHA program that I saw listed.

You could get them on the GFCI that is not present but there is an out and not required if one follows all the below reg's of 1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(c).
You might be on the hook if you don't have a 1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(C)(1) PLAN...

I know the local's Inspectors would have a field day with the open cover.

I don't, nor have ever experienced anything like that on the job, it's more of
Label documentation that states "Danger - Hands Off", most trades will
show alot of but some no respect to usage and alot more self control than stated here in respects to temp. services provided.

I franklly can't believe some of the responses.

I can only hope this becomes a better understanding of while not stated in a working contract should be understood and practiced in the work place.

Standards numbers: (Taken from Here)

Using the search of OSHA's page of "electrical standards." and isolatd it down to these wiring design and protection. This is just a particle listing.

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)
The following requirements apply to temporary wiring installations that are used during construction-like activities, including certain maintenance, remodeling, or repair activities, involving buildings, structures or equipment.

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(A)
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets that are not part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and that are in use by personnel shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Note 1 to paragraph (b)(3)(ii)(A) of this section: A cord connector on an extension cord set is considered to be a receptacle outlet if the cord set is used for temporary electric power.

Note 2 to paragraph (b)(3)(ii)(A) of this section: Cord sets and devices incorporating the required ground-fault circuit-interrupter that are connected to the receptacle closest to the source of power are acceptable forms of protection.

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(B)
Receptacles other than 125 volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacles that are not part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and that are in use by personnel shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(C)
Where the ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection required by paragraph (b)(3)(ii)(B) of this section is not available for receptacles other than 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere, the employer shall establish and implement an assured equipment grounding conductor program covering cord sets, receptacles that are not a part of the building or structure, and equipment connected by cord and plug that are available for use or used by employees on those receptacles. This program shall comply with the following requirements:

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(C)(1)
A written description of the program, including the specific procedures adopted by the employer, shall be available at the jobsite for inspection and copying by the Assistant Secretary of Labor and any affected employee;

1910.304(b)(3)(ii)(C)(2)
The employer shall designate one or more competent persons to implement the program;
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
Don't say no; say how much.
It's not a problem; it's an opportunity.

Write up your bid to correct a serious electrical problem at the site. Be sure to include the installation of an appropriate receptacle for the violator. Hand it to the GC with a smile. Thank him for paying you to be idle while he corrects the safety issue. Then go back to work while ignoring the whole thing. If he shoots back with anything then shrug toward Foamy and tell the GC that Foamy is his problem not yours. Then go back to work while ignoring the whole thing.

Ignore it that is until you have to access the panel. Then you take that spare copy of the bid and have the GC sign for it. Smile. If he bucks then remind him that Foamy is his problem not yours.

Oh and there's a learning opportunity. To your future bids add the appropriate receptacle as an up-front option. Then when you bill him during construction you can point back to the original bid where he crossed it out.

Side note: While that panel is open be sure to be exceeding safe. Live-Dead-Live, hot neutrals, etc. You can't know what else he messed up. Disconnect and text all circuits before working on them.
 

Chenley

Member
Location
Western KY
How about this? He damaged his own sprayer hooking it up the way he did. I'm sure the manual for that sprayer did not show to temporarily wire it into a panel the way he did. Thus, he can't read or follow the directions for his own equipment which lead to the equipment failing.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I am on the side of, (1) The foam guy made a mistake by hooking this up himself, but (2) The forman made a mistake by not first informing the foam guy that power is about to be turned off. That should have been a "I am telling you that I will turn power off," and not any kind of polite request (as in, "please turn your equipment off so I can remove power"). Here is my reasoning:
And being my foreman saw an immediate danger. . .
I disagree with this assertion. True, an open panel is a danger to anyone who comes too close. But this was not a "seconds count, someone is being shocked and will die in a couple moments, and I must act now to save that person's life" situation. Your foreman had time. There was time to (1) Station a safety person next to the panel, to prevent anyone from coming near, (2) Informing the person using power that you are about to turn it off, (3) Turning power off and unhooking the conductors and closing the cover, and finally (4) Writing up a change order to the GC for the extra work you just had to do.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
LazyS, I think you should contribute a little to the foam guy, give him a quarter and tell him to call somebody that may give a rats behind


Roger
 
It was spray on foam. And being my foreman saw an immediate danger, he shut down power without letting them know first. And that is our panel, we do reserve the right to shut down power at any time if we feel that safety warrants it. If something happened while we were going through the proper channels, who is going to get blamed for it. We would.


I am consulting on a job, and just returned back from a meeting with the attorney.

Here is my advice, which comes from the last 6 years experience dealing with situations such as this.

1. You do not want to get nasty, that never looks good if this should get in front of a judge.
KEEP YOUR COMPOSURE!!!!!!!!!!

2. Your man removed the circuit breaker and wiring as he thought he saw arcing.
It is possible that the arcing was caused by your "machine burning"

3. Now, if you like, we will make the termination for you, as this is electrical work that requires a permit and licensee. But I suggest that you have your machine looked at so this does not happen again.

I hope to help you in the electrical portion of your work, thank you and have a nice day.


That is how I would treat the situation.
Good luck
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
In most areas the EC on the job is responsible for Temp power.
This can be a very touchy situation. The Foamy guy should have been given notice that the machine was to be turned off and at the same time a person should have been standing by the panel to make sure nobody got near until is was safed off.
The GC needs to know that unless he take resonsibility then the EC needs to take care of the situation.

Note that I belive that if the EC did nothing and something bad happend and it was known the EC knew of the problem then it would be a problem for the EC.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
I am consulting on a job, and just returned back from a meeting with the attorney.

Here is my advice, which comes from the last 6 years experience dealing with situations such as this.

1. You do not want to get nasty, that never looks good if this should get in front of a judge.
KEEP YOUR COMPOSURE!!!!!!!!!!

2. Your man removed the circuit breaker and wiring as he thought he saw arcing.
It is possible that the arcing was caused by your "machine burning"

3. Now, if you like, we will make the termination for you, as this is electrical work that requires a permit and licensee. But I suggest that you have your machine looked at so this does not happen again.

I hope to help you in the electrical portion of your work, thank you and have a nice day.


That is how I would treat the situation.
Good luck

Very nicely put..
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
I like Pierre's response best in this situation. You thought you saw arcing and took immediate action.

In the future, I'd probably tell them they have 5 mins. to shutdown their equipment before the breaker goes off and the wires get disconnected.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I can't recommend creating a reason, after the fact, to justify an action.

Thus sayeth Samuel Johnson,
"This at least, said Imlac, is the present reward of virtuous conduct, that no unlucky consequence can oblige us to repent it."
 

AV ELECTRIC

Senior Member
I can't recommend creating a reason, after the fact, to justify an action.

Thus sayeth Samuel Johnson,

I agree. once you create a tangled web you may get stuck in it.the action you took was not job site protocol that being said the burden of proof is on there part to prove this device was damaged by your action. Do you even know for sure that this device is not working . dont get worked up on something like this until theres a documented complaint. Talk to the super put it in writing if you want but dont change your story. Tell you employees not to get involved and keep quiet on this issue.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
There is no argument that the foam installer was wrong for making the connection, but two wrongs don't make a right. It is pretty clear that your guys disconnected the line out of spite, and what you have written here on the forum is admissible in court if he were to come after you for damages.

At the very worst, you should have notified the foamer that he was going to lose power, but even that would not bode well for your reputation. The proper way to handle the situation is to tell the GC that there is an unsafe condition that needs to be repaired and you will need to cut power for a short time to correct the problem, and when can this be scheduled at the earliest time.
2. Your man removed the circuit breaker and wiring as he thought he saw arcing.
It is possible that the arcing was caused by your "machine burning"
You definitely would not want to make this claim at this point in time. As I said above, everything said on this forum is public knowledge, and you would be in even more legal trouble.
 

mivey

Senior Member
It is pretty clear that your guys disconnected the line out of spite, and what you have written here on the forum is admissible in court if he were to come after you for damages.
He did not say it was for spite and I'm not sure you could prove it was spite rather than a un-humbled position of ownership (or who knows what - we have not questioned the witness).

If I walk to my truck and someone has plugged a power inverter into my power outlet without my knowledge, I'm probably going to unplug it unless there are some paramedics working on someone right next to my truck with their defibrillator plugged into my truck.

Anyway, there was not yelling indicated until after the repair was started. Were it not for the yelling, they could have quickly found him a source of power that would not include endangering others.

If someone comes to me and says: "hey you just cut me off and I need power restored quickly or X will suffer", I am more likely to get right on it. A statement of my position would certainly follow or coincide with the restoration.

If they want to have a yelling contest first, we can dispense with that before we see about getting power restored. Their choice.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I'm no lawyer but

I'm no lawyer but

The insulating subcontractor should not have been in that panel. Also, there is no guarantee that temp power will stay on. That your guys unhooked his connection doesn't really matter to me: as hurk27 mentioned, power could have been lost for any number of reasons. It sounds as though you removed his connection properly, so I don't see how you fried his sprayer. If it gummed up from sitting, then shame on him for not having the solvent he needed to clean the machine.

"Now he is claiming that we burned his equipment up when we unlanded the wires."

How much time passed between you unhooking his sprayer and this claim?

I agree that this situation could have been handled better, but imo you had every right to remove his wires.

I don't think your reputation will take a hit on this. You are on the jobsite to get the job done, and safely, not make friends. Foam guy ought to be happy that you were looking out for him and everyone else, and that he (and everyone else) got to leave the jobsite that afternoon in his truck instead of an ambulance or body bag.

If the foam guy doesn't have better sense than to ask the EC for a proper outlet, rigs a dangerous connection on a live panel, with no PPE, and leaves the cover off, he shouldn't be on the jobsite at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

"You are not responsible for safety on the job site"

Everyone is responsible for safety on a jobsite.

"If you see a damaged cord plugged into your temp receptical do you pull it out?"

Generally not (in my experience it's rare to see a cord damaged to the point of being unsafe), however if an undamaged cord was, say, draped across a stairwell, then yes, I will unplug it and reroute it in a safer way.

If you saw a scrap 2x4 laying in the middle of the floor with nails sticking out and up, and no framers were around, wouldn't you move it out of the way?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Wood flooring guys I know routinely hook up their 240V sanders with alligator clips to the buss bars."

iMuse97, why not provide a 240V outlet for them? If they keep that up, they might want to sand some pine boxes...
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If you saw a scrap 2x4 laying in the middle of the floor with nails sticking out and up, and no framers were around, wouldn't you move it out of the way?
Nope. I'd have to wait and ask the licensed carpenter on the job to do it. ;)
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Although I agree with stick it, foam it and any thing else one lessens learned for the future. When you install temp panels do it with tamper proof screws on the covers. Security torx, snake eyes..... etc. That will maybe make them come to you or the GC for the install and then you can make a safe install.
 
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