Who is running things anyway ?

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MasterTheNEC said:
So we can assume you are an Electrician and all the work you do is for Free and out of the goodness of your heart right. Clearly you are expressing your opinion and again entitled as such. However, I disagree and will leave it at that. You make a lot of assumptions about the people who make efforts to make codes better and safer but do not actually back any of the information you rant about up.

I see you have an affection (maybe not) for back wiring and quick connect devices. Can you cite any issue where the fire was attributed to them directly as a result of their faulty manufacturing process or is it possible they were installed incorrectly as well and it is just easier to point fingers at the easy target. Greed you say....in a country where capitalism is king and you have the right to charge humble fees or outrageous services for needless add-ons....you thus have the right to do so and thank god you do.

Also considering the majority of inspectors make very humble wages...to think those "conscience inspectors" are reaping the rewards of your failed inspection is completely a fantasy. But hey......I am (as you) entitled to that opinion that is in disagreement with you.

Opps...Guess I did not leave it at that....My Bad!
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Yes I can I've found in one case in a bedroom where a neural had come loose from a quick connect. When a maid plugged a vacuum. The motor completed the circuit never tripped the breaker and caught the back of the house on fire. House was 1.8 million dollar home less than a year old. Another house fire I was on was caused by a quick connect on a lighting circuit. The whole second floor lighting including attic and ceiling fans the hots were daisychained and burnt due to a weak quick connect. Sometimes these problems don't get found until someone pulls out the receptacle. Like a painter, or wall paper hanger who simply unscrews the outlet pulls it from the wall a little bit but that's enough in some occasions to loosen a quick connect. If no one sees this as a problem and think I just have an agenda that's sad. I've seen many fires and believe to have found repaired several loss of power problems all quick connect related that could be potential fires. I'm not in any way trying to say the whole process is wrong or corrupt and many many good safety requirements have been correctly implemented. However this really needs a second look. Your final electrical inspections won't find a loose quick connect nor should they. It's all put on the shoulders of the installer so for me to sleep at night I never use them.
Real quick I'm not looking for a argument and the inspectors I'm talking about are at the highest level where laws and arguments against laws decisions are being made. Any safety concerned electrician who gives a damn about what happens after he leaves cannot possibly feel confident with a quick connect and will never convince me myself just me otherwise.
What happens when the homeowner decides he can put that dimmer in look how easy just plug it into the back when the house burns down who's fault is it ? The homeowners ? Or the stupid fast way he could install said dimmer. That's it bottom line for me ?
 
The point is....These devices are tested, verified and listed. Everything has a potential to fail (Even the Electrician) so of we don't rely on testing then what do you have?

Some of the best minds in the business are devoted to testing and just because they work for a specific company, that doesn't displace their intent to better the industry and in fact care deeply about the industry. The bigger debate is the lack of competent licensed electricians coming into the business and quite possibly the degradation of qualified teachers and oversight.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
Money and greed is still a driving force in a lot of things we have today. Safety is used as a scare tactic to get people to commit to a principle, though some only present facts that support their economic benefit and not always the entire picture.

AFCI is a great example. Have we learned something from the AFCI battle, yes. Do we have a product that is the ultimate solution for safety - No, at least not yet. Was it worth it so far - I am undecided.
 
kwired said:
Money and greed is still a driving force in a lot of things we have today. Safety is used as a scare tactic to get people to commit to a principle, though some only present facts that support their economic benefit and not always the entire picture.

AFCI is a great example. Have we learned something from the AFCI battle, yes. Do we have a product that is the ultimate solution for safety - No, at least not yet. Was it worth it so far - I am undecided.
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I will not argue that because it has much truth within in. However, that can be said about anything we buy from Cars to Guns. Yes, our industry is not immune to it but we are simply apart of it and the mother of invention keeps rolling on. The same (as I am sure you have heard) debate over GFCI's rang out many years ago only to become quite a proven safety advancement so time will only tell.
 
Smash said:
Yes I can I've found in one case in a bedroom where a neural had come loose from a quick connect. When a maid plugged a vacuum. The motor completed the circuit never tripped the breaker and caught the back of the house on fire. House was 1.8 million dollar home less than a year old. Another house fire I was on was caused by a quick connect on a lighting circuit. The whole second floor lighting including attic and ceiling fans the hots were daisychained and burnt due to a weak quick connect. Sometimes these problems don't get found until someone pulls out the receptacle. Like a painter, or wall paper hanger who simply unscrews the outlet pulls it from the wall a little bit but that's enough in some occasions to loosen a quick connect. If no one sees this as a problem and think I just have an agenda that's sad. I've seen many fires and believe to have found repaired several loss of power problems all quick connect related that could be potential fires. I'm not in any way trying to say the whole process is wrong or corrupt and many many good safety requirements have been correctly implemented. However this really needs a second look. Your final electrical inspections won't find a loose quick connect nor should they. It's all put on the shoulders of the installer so for me to sleep at night I never use them.
Real quick I'm not looking for a argument and the inspectors I'm talking about are at the highest level where laws and arguments against laws decisions are being made. Any safety concerned electrician who gives a damn about what happens after he leaves cannot possibly feel confident with a quick connect and will never convince me myself just me otherwise.
What happens when the homeowner decides he can put that dimmer in look how easy just plug it into the back when the house burns down who's fault is it ? The homeowners ? Or the stupid fast way he could install said dimmer. That's it bottom line for me ?[/QUOTE
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George Stolz said:
I am so glad that I have better things to do than worry about who has trademarked what common term or phrase. Like eating paste.
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Who's worried...lol....it's all about being educated and not with regards to Pasta.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
GerryB said:
Can't backstab the neutral. NEC 300.13(B) If the inspector on rough required it to be spliced maybe no fire in that case.
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Unless there has been a change that only applies with MW branch circuits.
 
augie47 said:
Unless there has been a change that only applies with MW branch circuits.
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:happyyes:

AFAIK, this is the case

300.13(b):

"In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of the grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such devices would interrupt the continuity."


No mention of MWBC in Smash's post-

Smash said:
Yes I can I've found in one case in a bedroom where a neural had come loose from a quick connect. When a maid plugged a vacuum. The motor completed the circuit never tripped the breaker and caught the back of the house on fire. House was 1.8 million dollar home less than a year old. Another house fire I was on was caused by a quick connect on a lighting circuit. The whole second floor lighting including attic and ceiling fans the hots were daisychained and burnt due to a weak quick connect. Sometimes these problems don't get found until someone pulls out the receptacle.
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MasterTheNEC said:
Who's worried...lol....it's all about being educated and not with regards to Pasta.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
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I would hardly classify the matter as a relevant point of education, unless in attending a history class one would expect to find the Kardashians a matter of historical importance. Now, understanding the difference between paste and pasta could spare one an embarrassing episode, however, and worthy of study.
 
Hey....I don't care if you eat Pasta or Paste....I hope ya try the latter.;)

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
Should one worry about profiteers cloaked in the guise of safety in a capitalist system with only capitalist remedies ?

~RJ~
 
MasterTheNEC said:
The point is....These devices are tested, verified and listed. Everything has a potential to fail (Even the Electrician) so of we don't rely on testing then what do you have?

Some of the best minds in the business are devoted to testing and just because they work for a specific company, that doesn't displace their intent to better the industry and in fact care deeply about the industry.
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Businesses exist to make money and profit, plain and simple. There is no other reason for their existence. It's truly laughable that you make global mega-corporations who make the majority of electrical products into civic minded, benevolent organizations.
 
So based on your hypocrisy you fail to think YOU'RE business is any different, just clearly on a itty-bitty scale.

Interesting you assume but never get involved in events that interact with such folks you spew venom against ..oh wait you are here with the legends of Codes Knowledge..sorry I forgot forgive me.

You can make the manufacturers out at villains....just shows your ignorance by looking at the big corporate picture while not seeing the caring people who work behind the scenes who do have safety on their mind.

Shame the world can't have the vast knowledge that you seem to have oh wise one.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
But just to be clear...I already knew of your manufacturer hatred (and me as well no less..lol)...so no revelations here.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
So based on your hypocrisy you fail to think YOU'RE business is any different, just clearly on a itty-bitty scale.
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Did I say it was different? The difference is I have no influence on code making panels that can easily force use of unproven products (cough AFCI cough) into the NEC.

Interesting you assume but never get involved in events that interact with such folks you spew venom against ..oh wait you are here with the legends of Codes Knowledge..sorry I forgot forgive me.
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Yes, I assume that people who work for corporation have one goal in mind - to make money for that corporation. As for interacting with such people, I would rather watch grass grow than do that. I don't have the rose colored glasses on about them.


You can make the manufacturers out at villains....just shows your ignorance by looking at the big corporate picture while not seeing the caring people who work behind the scenes who do have safety on their mind.
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I will NEVER trust or believe a for-profit corporation no matter how many supposedly "caring" people work behind the scenes. They care about safety because if they made unsafe products, it would hurt their bottom line via lawsuits and damage to their reputation. But by all means, all these caring people can get together and form a non-profit to make electrical products - then I will start to trust and believe them.

Shame the world can't have the vast knowledge that you seem to have oh wise one.
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It really is a shame, the world would be a better place. :cool:
 
Clearly your assumptions are inaccurate because I know better. You also fail to clearly understand how CMP's are made up and also you lump every company in that little ball of ignorance. Manufacturers create products to meet needs, the AFCI issue to which you LOVE was born out of a call by the CPSC. However, I am sure you will say that is corrupt also and embedded with Manufacturers...of course what was I thinking....lololol....Yeah I have heard all of the pitches before. To each his own belief.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Clearly your assumptions are inaccurate because I know better. You also fail to clearly understand how CMP's are made up and also you lump every company in that little ball of ignorance. Manufacturers create products to meet needs, the AFCI issue to which you LOVE was born out of a call by the CPSC. However, I am sure you will say that is corrupt also and embedded with Manufacturers...of course what was I thinking....lololol....Yeah I have heard all of the pitches before. To each his own belief.
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Manufacturers create products to meet needs? No, they create them to make money. You really are delusional if you believe otherwise.
 
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