Whole House Rewire

[jeff43222]

I went on a troubleshooting call at a single-family dwelling recently, and it turned out the actual problem was just the beginning. The electrical system is antiquated, to say the least. It's a 60A fused service, upstream of the 30A fuse box that's still in use, most likely as a subpanel of some sort. The whole second floor was a DIY special: NM stapled to the surface of the plaster wall and floorboards, single wires sticking out from under the coverplates, etc.

I managed to convince the HO that the entire structure needed to be rewired, but he is naturally nervous about how much this is going to cost him. I've never bid a whole house before, and I'm not sure how much time or materials I should anticipate. Here are some details about the house:

1923 bungalow
5 bedrooms (three of which are in the finished attic)
1 full bath on the first floor
1 three-season porch (AHJ considers it a habitable room)
1 dining room
1 kitchen
816 sq. ft. foundation (full basement)
1142 finished sq. ft.
detached garage

The HO really wants me to do the work since I got a glowing recommendation from his next-door neighbors, who the HO thinks very highly of. It seems to me the job is mine, assuming I bid it right.

Anyone have any ballpark estimates as to how much time and materials this one would involve? I've already gotten the service upgrade priced out appropriately; it's the rest of the house I'm not sure about. I work alone, so I tend to do kitchen and bathroom remodels, or newly finished basements. A whole house is a larger scale than I'm used to.

[ July 22, 2005, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[growler]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Jeff, If I understand what you are saying there are three bedrooms in the attic ( so no attic). That means you can get to the wiring without cutting. What about the basement, is it finished? You may get some runs from the bottom. The sun room is another trouble spot. Did you mention garage ( finished, slab). Are all the walls plaster ( don't want to ruin it). All I can say is that you picked a good one to learn on ( the meanest bull in the pin ). I guess the people are going to live there during the rewire. I wouldn't touch it unless it was time & materials with a good understanding that someone else does the repairs to the plaster. I have only rewired a few and I choose ranch style, unfinished attic , unfinished basement and no one in the house. There were still little hard to get to areas. Rewires eat a lot of time so plan it carefully.

 

[celtic]

Re: Whole House Rewire

I'm sure you'll understand if I don't toss any numbers in here.

[ July 22, 2005, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Whole House Rewire

I figure 1 journeyman and 1 helper per each opening.Doing this alone is all but impossable.And there will be plaster damage in this one.T and M is only way i would touch it.Its more like 100 service calls grouped together.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Yes, the attic has been finished into three small bedrooms and a small storage room, so there's no real attic anymore. Definitely will need to cut things open to get access.

The basement is partially finished, but nothing that anyone would be upset about damaging (obvious amateur job). The area around the old panel and where the new panel will be is not finished.

The three-season porch is always a problem, as the basement doesn't extend under it, as is typical in this area. Local AHJ calling it a habitable room definitely throws a wrench into the plan.

Garage is not finished. I didn't check if it had a slab under it, but I assume it does. Most do in this area. Garage is currently being fed with an overhead feeder from the house.

The walls are mostly (if not all) plaster on wood lath. Unless someone did some remodeling I didn't know about, I'm going on the assumption that all the walls are plaster.

As far as I know, people will be living there during the remodel. The HO bought the place for his son to live in while in college, and the other bedrooms are rentals. The son has graduated and is soon going to move out, so that would leave the place totally occupied by non-family. I suspect that renters wouldn't be too happy about having to put up with me and my work. I plan to make it very clear that walls and ceilings will be busted up, and they can arrange for their own fixing work.

I'd love to do it on a T&M basis, but I doubt they'd go for that on a job this big. At this point, they want an estimate from me to get an idea on cost. I'm starting to think that the job may not be worth pursuing, especially since there will be people living there the whole time. Also, when I mentioned breaking up the walls, they seemed less than enthusiastic about that idea. I don't really see any way to do it without breaking up the walls.

I get the feeling I should probably run away from this job unless they go for T&M.

[ July 23, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Check with ahj first.Here rewiring does not mean spacing as per 02 or 05 code.Tell them that if you lock it to a price that you would be forced to estimate it very high to cover your a$$.I have gave rough estimates from seeing building and talking about amount of damage they can live with,but actual bill was T and M.Last few i did came in lower than estimate.Suggest to them that they go on vacation while your doing this.With them living in the house it will go far slower and if small kids involved i would say no way,just not worth the risk.

 

[Jhr]

Re: Whole House Rewire

I agree with Growler, T&M would be your best route. But if the HO wants numbers,(standard installation) no can lights no fancy nothing. open walls around $2.50 sq. ft upto 150 amp service, closed walls more like $3.50 per sq. ft, no patch work, preliminary estimate this could change + or -, maybe try Cost Plus HO pays price for,labor and material + say, 15%. But you have to take into account labor rates and material prices change + or - depending what part of the USA you are in.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Rewires are like remodels,figure 4 to 10 times the labor of new construction.

 

[growler]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Jhr, this is the type of job that I was referring to when I said that a bid program is useless ( the throw away thing is a joke, there are places where it works just fine). There are so many variables on this that only basic calculation can start to cover them all. This house may have deep base board that can be remove and then the bottom section of plaster removed, then replace the plaster section with drywall and replace baseboard after the wire is run. I've seen this trick used but it may not apply hear. Jimwalker says four to ten times new construction. Sounds good to me. So let us be conservative ( to the max ) and assume that new construction labor cost is $1.50 pr. sq. ft. ( not going to any cheaper than that) 1.50 X 4 = 6.00 X 1200 ft = $7200.00 plus materials $2000.00 and you get $9200.00. For those who think I should be shot for being to low, you are right but I'm making a point. Now you go to the homeowner and tell them you will cap the price at 10K. Sound reasonable to anyone. Be prepaired to administer CPR. First they choke then they turn pale and then they pass out. Jeff I don't want to scare you away from rewires, don't use these numbers because I pulled them from you know where. I forgot that the homeowner still gets to plaster and paint so get the smelling salts ready for when they under the second time. Try crunching the numbers, I gave up trying unless it's an expensive home in a nice neighborhood where I can justify them spending some major bucks. More than what were are talking about.

 

[khixxx]

Re: Whole House Rewire

sounds like the home i looked at about a week ago. The home was older and was rented out to a bunch of slobs. I didn't want to touch it but i did give a price. Yeah it was a jaw dropper Any way what i would suggest is to break the home in 3 phases so its not such a big hit for the HO. Unless its a real fire hazard which i'm sure it is. I dont' know if thats the type of answer your looking for.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Some rewires are forced in order to keep insurance.Left up to the landlord they would never get rewired.So either they pay for a rewire or chance a fire with no insurance.Want to keep cost down then move tenants and contents out first.

 

[satcom]

Re: Whole House Rewire

We did a job pretty close to this one last year, after checking the construction, and looking at the job conditions, we quoted $17,000, they accepted, so we started the job, half way thru we knew we were in trouble, walls had cross studs everywhere 1928 construction, rather then fishing, we were opening, and notching, plaster openings had expanding cracks, basement still had junk piled high, even after repeated requests to move the junk, when all was completed, the total labor and material came to $24,000 for a grand total loss of $7,000

The customer told us he would have the basement cleaned out, never happened.

The customer told us the rooms would be empty when we started, never happened,

The customer told us, open any wall where you need to, then asked why we had to open it there, or there, or anywhere.

And, in the middle of the job, they wanted to make changes.

NEVER Try to use SQ ft for old work, unless you plan to pay them for doing the work.

 

[stud696981]

Re: Whole House Rewire

I agree with the above posts........T&M only for jobs like this and it doesn't include any patch and paint work.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Whole House Rewire

"
The customer told us he would have the basement cleaned out, never happened.

The customer told us the rooms would be empty when we started, never happened,

The customer told us, open any wall where you need to, then asked why we had to open it there, or there, or anywhere."

Hate to say this but it's your fault for starting it till they complied.
A few years ago i did a T and M rewire on 2 building 1 property.1st unit was upstairs apartment ,tenant had just moved out so perfect place to start.Went fast and easy,made all junctions in attic.2 nd unit downstairs,owners son and his wife rented it.Little bit slower but they cooperated with me .Simply told them where we would be working a day before.3rd unit was upstairs of a garage.It was a nightmare.Furnature packed so tight you could hardly move around.How they lived in it was beyond me.It was the smallest apartment and took the most time.They gave us a hard time about being there.Didn't want woke up till about 11 am.Phone call to landlord helped some.Had this not been T and M we would have lost our a$$ on the 3rd unit.Funny part was it was the unit i expected to go the easiest with attic and garage under it.Access from both top and bottom.Garage was packed full of junk.

Any rewires from me will be T and M

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Whole House Rewire

The plot thickens...

The HO called me yesterday and told me he's already gotten three other bids, all in the $5000-$6000 range. Apparently the scope of the work is less than we originally discussed; now it's just a service upgrade (60A fuses -> 150A breakers), plus whatever is needed to make the system safe and up to code (local, not NEC). There will be renters living in the house the entire time, and opening of walls is to be kept to a minimum.

I'm leaning toward walking away from this one. I suspect that trying to do the work under these conditions as a one-man shop would be more of a PITA than it's worth.

 

[cselectric]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Six grand for a service upgrade and a non specific code upgrade? Run, don't walk, in the opposite direction.

When they say "bring it up to code, it means whatever the AHJ might find has to be fixed. In a building that old, the AHJ can usually find quite a lot.

When they say "keep wall damage to a minimum" they mean, if you cut any holes at all, we will moan and complain, and if you cut more than an arbitrary number of holes (a number we will never tell you until the end) we will deduct repair costs from your final bill.


That kind of open ended work scope will bite you in the *** 99 times out of 100.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Yeah, I agree with you on this one. It turns out the HO is a Realtor/lawyer who told me he's done several like this in the last few years, so he "knows how much it costs." My lawyer, who lives next door, told me to avoid the job since the HO will nickel-dime me on everything.

I've already gone through the house and inspected it for things that would have to be brought up to local code, and I found all kinds of stuff without even looking very hard.

I just can't see how I could make money on the job if I'd have to do it for $5,000-6,000. I contacted the HO today and told him I was going to pass on bidding on it.

 

[cselectric]

Re: Whole House Rewire

Realtor/Lawyer/Landlord? (Why do I suddenly feel the need to take a shower??? )


My guess is, the way this project works is you do the job, cut the walls where you have to, take the time necessary to do it right, and... turns out you did six grand in damage to those walls, above and beyond what was expected and acceptable... so no money for you. That explains why the guy was buttering you up when he had you there the first time. He needs to grab and catch your interest so you'll stick around. After all, he can't call his last electrician because no one is dense enough to get stiffed twice.

 

[redfish]

Re: Whole House Rewire

T and M baby.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Whole House Rewire

I'm not sure why it is, but T&M doesn't seem to be done around here. Everyone wants a fixed bid for pretty much everything except troubleshooting calls. Yet when I talk to plumbers, they tell me that they do just about everything T&M.

Maybe I picked the wrong trade.