whole House surge protector requires breaker to be top left space? I DOUBT IT!

[bullheimer]

HERE is the email i got from the company who wants me to install the 2 pole breaker for their whole house surge protector/capacitor, in the top left breaker space. And ONLY the top left breaker space.

Almost always their is big wire up there. Almost always their is a generator breaker their, or you should leave it in case their is a generator installed someday (for the interlock). or at least leave it well enough alone. j

so here is the explanation they gave me as to why they would VOID the warranty on all blown up equipment if the protector was NOT installed in the top left (or it seems to me right also), breaker:

"The reasoning behind the surge protector being installed into the top left breaker is because most breaker panels are wired from the top. In the event of a power surge, the current is going to travel down to each circuit in the panel. If the surge protector is wired into the bottom left breaker, the only circuits protected are the bottom two. Everything above the breaker dedicated to the surge protector would be left vulnerable to a surge. The only instance when this would not apply would be if the breaker panel were wired from the bottom, which, from what I understand, is not common. In that case, the surge protctor would be wired into the bottom breaker. I had to have my supervisor explain this to me. He is the designer of the surge protector, and has a degree in electrical engineering. i also did a little research online. I have been asked this question and wanted to be able to provide a proper answer for you. Again, thank you for installing the surge protectors for me, and I apologize for the issues with the installations."

Im sorry, but i think this is complete BS. I am sure i have seen other surge protectors that did not specify where to put the breaker but i could be wrong on that. But the logic isn't gettin thru to me. IT Iis a giant PITA for me to do these this way, due to AC/Heat pump; sub panel; or elec Furnace wires landed on top breakers, already completely FULL panels full of tandem breakers, and the possibility of an interlock being there.

But also let me point out there is four feet of #12 wire from the breaker to the device. the current would have to travel the four feet to the protector to do any good right? so i can't see what the diff is where in the heck this stupid breaker gets landed, esp in light of this.

 

[Speedskater]

While there are strong arguments for placing the protector as close as practical to where incoming power is connected to the panel board, it's not a left/right thing. But the four foot run to the protector is about three & 1/2 feet too long.

added content:

Why? Because much of a lightning stroke is at a very high frequency! You can hear a thunder storm on an AM radio. The longer the wire the greater the self-inductance. so we want to keep the connecting wires and the buss very short.

 

[cpinetree]

Sounds like the Optimizer by Innovative Energy Solutions.

The company we installed them for could not understand why the cost was so much, and each job had to be looked at prior to install.

Most required polaris taps and twin breakers in the panel, if not a sub panel for panels that would not accept twins.

We always pulled permits also.

As everyone on this board knows these things are smoke and mirrors, but if they payed our price to install them we gladly did. Have not done any for a year or so, they likely found someone to do them sans permit and save the extra $80, and/or just put universal twin breakers into panels not designed to accept them. Not to mention the customers having them installed payed upwards of $600 for these things, and you go look at it only to find its an FPE panel or an ITE panel with a burning buss, now the service needs to be upgraded for another $1200+.

 

[templdl]

HERE is the email i got from the company who wants me to install the 2 pole breaker for their whole house surge protector/capacitor, in the top left breaker space. And ONLY the top left breaker space.

Almost always their is big wire up there. Almost always their is a generator breaker their, or you should leave it in case their is a generator installed someday (for the interlock). or at least leave it well enough alone. j

so here is the explanation they gave me as to why they would VOID the warranty on all blown up equipment if the protector was NOT installed in the top left (or it seems to me right also), breaker:
QUOTE]

Placing close to the main it common as when located there it is able to capture the disturbance protecting the rest of the bus. Should you place it at the end if the bus the disturbance travels the length of the bur before it is able to be filtered.
There is no reason to doubt this directive unless you have an actual study to the contrary.
Follow the directions for installation as the manufacturers have no reason to misinform you. This is not a for profit issue but is for optimum performance and protection.

 

[gar]

121012-1645 EDT

Is this thing being described a power factor correction capacitor plus a transient limiter?

The work "optimizer" might imply such a device. A PFC device at the main panel in a home is a fraud if the intended purpose is to reduce energy consumption.

.

 

[petersonra]

I am not buying the reasoning here.

 

[bullheimer]

here is a link to a youtube vid of a different but the same product by powerworx. they also have the unit mounted with flex into the bottom of the panel. however, in their video, if you watch it all, they install the breaker for it at the first available spot underneath all the rest. their unit is small enough to maybe even fit inside the panel, so why dont they make you, if that is the only real way it will work. this unit is supposed to give you clean power, so i am assuming it does more than protect voltage spikes. ie these two units, the one i installed and the one in the video are no different.

i am not getting the logic here either peterson.

Vid link: http://youtu.be/lca1O3UCr70

fyi i pulled permits for both and both passed with the breakers on the bottom. i went back and put one on top. but the other had a 60 elec. heat breaker there i could not stretch the wires to so i left it on the bottom. i might go back and fix it i havent decided. i did buy the large butt splices tho. the customer showed me her invoice: $1400!!!!!

My opinion, is that the four or so feet of wires to the device completely negate any logic for putting it in the top breaker space. any engineers out there want to back up their claim? they have a $25K guarantee for anything that blows up from a spike. i don't want to get nailed i would rather waste another hour of my life and do it per their 'spec'.

 

[templdl]

I am not buying the reasoning here.

Do you have a basis for your opinion? What do the instruction from the manufacturer state? If one were not follow the manufacture's instructon would it be a violation of NEC art 110-3 (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

 

[kwired]

If it is so important to get this device closer to the source then why isn't it being placed at the meter (if it is on the house anyway)?

I can see it may make some difference having it closer to the source, I really doubt it will be a significant difference - especially if there are 4 foot leads to connect it. What is impedance of those leads compared to say 18 inches of 200 amp panel bus?

The entire circuit will see at least some of the surge, placement in the circuit of the protector will help limit what goes where, but not every surge event will be same intensity or duration either. The closer the surge is to the clamping limitations of the device/ and or the longer the duration the more surge there is available to other portions of the circuit.

 

[gar]

121012-2123 EDT

I have now viewed the video. It is in fact a fraud relative to any claim of reducing energy consumption. That part is a power factor correction capacitor.

It may be a useful transient limiter, but no performance data is provided. A price of $1400 for the box is outrageous. Also it looks visually small to have much of a capacitor.

The $25,000 insurance policy is simply that, by self insurance, or an insurance company, and part of the reason for the very high price.

.

 

[hurk27]

bullheimer
You have been around this forum long enough that you should have read at least one of the many (snake oil) threads that over time many of us have committed on, while there is a reason to install surge suppression as close to the main buss in a panel as possible it's not going to make any noticeable difference where it is connected to this buss, they know this and if they had done any research (most likely they did) then they know in most panels with the back fed main the spaces directly across from the main is normally not available to install any breakers, even if they are they should never be used for another load and this puts allot of current on this buss stab.

So why are they insisting this?
Well with seeing what they are trying to claim in the video, like Gar stated (fraud)

They know it is virtually impossible to always be able to install their product as they wish, so they know that in many cases they can get out of paying for any damage a lightning strike would cause, or any damage cause by transients.

I would not even think about offering to install a device I know is nothing but fraud, in running of my company I built my customers trust on the fact that they knew what I installed I could believe in that it was something that worked, not just because they say it will, my advice is to kindly tell this customer that what this company is offering is not what they say it is, it will not reduce there electric bill, it will not provide lightning protection in most if not all cases of a lightning strike, and if they were ever to try to make a claim they will most likely not receive anything.

I hate to sound so harsh but these company's are popping up everytime we turn our heads, and I will not be a part of them defrauding my customers, simply put I will protect my reputation of looking out for my customers, and knowing that I will sleep well for doing so.

I would e-mail them back and politely state that you have no interest in in installing their product in your customers panels because you have your company's reputation to maintain.

Here are some facts that we need to know and inform our customers when we see that they are being lied to when they want things like this.

One, residential customers are never charged for power factor losses, this claim to save you money that has been purported by many of these snake oil company claims is nothing but pure fraud, even if we did pay for low PF, putting the caps at the panel is the most ineffective method you could ever choose, applying PF correction at the load and on the load side of the switch that operates the inductive load is much more effective. also having too much PF can be as bad as to little, over correcting can cause damage, so this claim is fraud that is all.

Two, Lightning is a very high frequency event, and speedskater did correctly identify this as the reason you want your leads of a panel mounted whole house surge suppression device to be as short as possible, this is reflected in the instructions of almost all manufactures of panel mounted SPD's, but it is only these small wire leads that are involved with this instruction, that never include where in the panelboard the device must be installed at, the idea is to install the device as close to the breaker protecting it, also you want to keep in mind of the distance to the neutral bar, as putting the device far from the neutral bar kind of defeats the reason when you are also protecting 120 volt loads, but with the size of the main buss bars in a panel it makes no difference as to where you install it, as long as you keep the small wire leads short as you can.

Because of the high frequency current of a lightning or transient event, wire will have a much higher impedance, it is this high impedance that makes it very important to keep the conductors as short as possible, this is why panel mounted SPD's do very little in protecting appliances at the end of a circuit many feet from the panel, about the only thing panel mounted SPD's do protect for is a lightning event where the point of attachment was to the power line down the road, they might provide some little protection for in house transient event that are cause in most cases by inductive loads when these loads are switch off, (inductive kick back) from motors or ballasted lighting, but because of the high impedance of the wire in a HF event it will in most cases not have been a problem to begin with.

The above is why I tell people to use point of use SPD's, placing the protection close to the load will go much farther in protecting the appliance then a panel mounted device can ever do.

Now as far as the claim of power conditioning, what I saw as to the size of this device I can not see how it could have much in the way of components for power conditioning, I have a power conditioner with voltage regulation on my computer and my 70" LCD TV in the livingroom, both of these are quit big and very heavy, both are made by Tripplite and cost when new close to $600.00 each, but I guess you can claim power conditioning by just putting a cap across the line:roll:

 

[Little Bill]

Wow!!!!
I read this thread assuming (I know) it was just a "whole house surge protector".
I thought about it for a while and thought I would look at the video to see if they had an explanation for the placement of the breaker for this.

I didn't know, from the OP, that is was just another of the "scam, snake-oil" devices. But it's the same old crap, just dressed up a little with the added surge protection.

You can get a whole house surge protector that would most likely be better than this for about 1/10th of the cost of this junk.

I would probably, if it's not too late, tell the customer about this and see if they can get their money back.
In any event, I would not even think about installing another one!

 

[zbang]

There is no reason to doubt this directive unless you have an actual study to the contrary.
Follow the directions for installation as the manufacturers have no reason to misinform you. This is not a for profit issue but is for optimum performance and protection.

I hope you're joking there.

There is every reason to doubt in absence of a actual study (preferable peer-reviewed, a marketing white-paper doesn't count). Whenever something presented as fact contradicts other known facts, it's up to the presenter to defend their statements; that's basic scientific method. This has nothing to do with installation instructions or warranties. If they want you to paint the box pink and it's in the instructions, sure, just don't spin me a tale about how it helps the electrons get comfortable.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I didn't see the UL "E" number in the video. I wonder what this device is listed as?

 

[templdl]

I hope you're joking there.

There is every reason to doubt in absence of a actual study (preferable peer-reviewed, a marketing white-paper doesn't count). Whenever something presented as fact contradicts other known facts, it's up to the presenter to defend their statements; that's basic scientific method. This has nothing to do with installation instructions or warranties. If they want you to paint the box pink and it's in the instructions, sure, just don't spin me a tale about how it helps the electrons get comfortable.

Then it would be carte blanche on the installer’s part to do the install in what ever way they would like second guessing the manufacturers recommendations.
If there is something represented by the manufacturer as fact which contradicts "known facts" as you appear to be aware of is there anything published that backs up these "known facts" that you can post so it can be reviewed? Do you have a reference to this "scientific method" that you are referring to?
No, I'm not joking as I am not aware of the "know facts" or the "basic scientific methods" being referred to or a "white paper." What you would be saying is that you can apply NEC art 110-3-B any way that you feel my be applied, that the installation instructions are note really applicable and have nothing to do with this article.
"Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."
In accordance to their instructions included in the listing and labeling. Interesting.
Their insistence on the device being installed next to the main is just put there just to make the installers life miserable then.

 

[bullheimer]

I hope you're joking there.

There is every reason to doubt in absence of a actual study (preferable peer-reviewed, a marketing white-paper doesn't count). Whenever something presented as fact contradicts other known facts, it's up to the presenter to defend their statements; that's basic scientific method. This has nothing to do with installation instructions or warranties. If they want you to paint the box pink and it's in the instructions, sure, just don't spin me a tale about how it helps the electrons get comfortable.

HA HA HA! THATS WHY I'M NOT VOTING FOR ROMNEY!

anyway Hurk. Awesome reply. I was contacted by this company:Innovative Energy Solutions: dba Eastern EcoPower. they said they had customers and asked if i would install for $225 each. i said hell yeah! so then i get there and both houses have big top breakers and are full of almost nothing but tandem breakers. i had to buy a double handle-tied quad to install.

of course i have to try to install according to instructions as per the code article stated above. the inspectors here are notorious for wanting to see them, i was fortunate in this case they did not. if it was a jet tub i know they would have. anyway. as i said i dont know if i should or not change out the second one, that is still attached to the bottom space. they are chinese, don't speak any kind of understandable english, and i am not sure if i do contact them they wont be on the phone to the mfg in five minutes. however, in my favor, i have not billed them yet either. guess i got to figure this out.

as for my business reputation, yeah, haha there too. i am applying for jobs all over and think i will be working for a sign company this monday (two days). i dont know if i will completely pull the plug, but pretty close to it. i already have no advertising in any current phone book, just on the web and craigslist, both of which let me starve to death and be behind on my house payments. i still want to stand behind my work, but..... if it aint gonna make this thing work one bit better, then why bother? it is eating at me tho and there is a big storm coming tomorrow. but hey, ya know what? it's saturday and they are closed!

hurk, thanks alot. a couple years ago i did some elec work for the engineer that designed the first one. he was retired and seemed very honest in his explanations of how this worked and how great it was. (and he was not trying to sell me one, just feeling me up what i would charge to install one.) so i just believed him. not being an engineer myself. i guess it's a good thing he didn't try to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge!

and also btw, i did not really ever think about the breaker space across from a back fed breaker remaining empty. i guess i never thought about it or heard that before, but i gotta say i totally agree with the logic of THAT! so thanks.

another quick note before edit time runs out. also in their instructions is a line that says Do Not Mount closer that One foot away from panel. boy does THAT fly in the face!

 

[petersonra]

Do you have a basis for your opinion? What do the instruction from the manufacturer state? If one were not follow the manufacture's instructon would it be a violation of NEC art 110-3 (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

If the manufacturer's instructions that apply to the listing of the product say it has to be installed there then code requires it.

I don't buy the reasoning they are giving though.

I wonder what their UL listing actually says.

 

[templdl]

If the manufacturer's instructions that apply to the listing of the product say it has to be installed there then code requires it.

I don't buy the reasoning they are giving though.

I wonder what their UL listing actually says.

I agree but is difficult to be disproved. But why would a manufacturer require the placement to be close to the main? There certainly wouldn't be a benefit to sales by being a feature function or benefit. Requiring as much would get Indians in an uproar and revolt. Why would they want to to it?
If I were a competitor it certainly would take advantage of this requirement by advertising that my product could be mounted anywhere in the panel where there is space. This would be a fantastic opportunity as I know that there is a market.

 

[zbang]

Then it would be carte blanche on the installer?s part to do the install in what ever way they would like second guessing the manufacturers recommendations.

No, it wouldn't (we've been through this before). Do not confuse the difference between following the instructions as written and questioning why they were written that way. I don't think anyone is saying we should just ignore the instructions, we're all saying that they're technically indefensible.

 

[templdl]

No, it wouldn't (we've been through this before). Do not confuse the difference between following the instructions as written and questioning why they were written that way. I don't think anyone is saying we should just ignore the instructions, we're all saying that they're technically indefensible.

Then I would think that it would be a no brainer for a manufacturer who does not have such a requirement would be guaranteed a market all to themselves. If such a product was available those who believe that the necessity to install an SPD next to the main is bogus and snake oil would be buying a product that doesn't have the requirement. I'm not aware that there is a manufacturer of an SPD that doesn't have this requirement.
Other that trying to make the installers life miserable why would a manufacturer want to irritate their customers with this install requirement if it doesn't improve its performance?
I'm just trying to justify why manufacturers included this as an installation requirement if there is no competitive advantage, it is not an NEC requirement other than art 110-3-b, and may not be a UL requirement unless it has been included in getting the product UL listed.
Either it is an important requirement or it's bogus. The what advantage woud there be for the manufacturer to include such a requirement? If there is no logical reason what would be the purpose be other than to irritate customers such as the number of posts this subject has generated?