Why does 277/480 cost so much?

[mbrooke]

Absolutely not true. There has always been a difference in listing for L-G (e.g. 480Y/277V only) versus L-L (e.g. 480V)


I have 'lighting' panelboard data sheets from more than 69 years ago which clearly state certain products were limited to a maximum of 277V.

But for what reason in relation to what though? If you mean interrupting, certainly.

 

[iceworm]

But for what reason in relation to what though? If you mean interrupting, certainly.

I'm not certain what you are asking - cause I am pretty sure you know this.

480 ungrounded, or 480 HGR - a phase to ground fault puts the other two phases at 480V to ground. The un-faulted phases do not stay at 277V as they do for 480 grounded-wye.

480 corner grounded D, two phases are always 480 to ground.

So, there are issues with clearances, insulation resistance, arc energy.

 

[mbrooke]

I'm not certain what you are asking - cause I am pretty sure you know this.

480 ungrounded, or 480 HGR - a phase to ground fault puts the other two phases at 480V to ground. The un-faulted phases do not stay at 277V as they do for 480 grounded-wye.

480 corner grounded D, two phases are always 480 to ground.

So, there are issues with clearances, insulation resistance, arc energy.

You make my point. Our equipment is not based, tested and standardized around grounded Ys, but deltas and there 6x transients.


Case in point: why aren't slash rated 3 phase breakers typical?

 

[iceworm]

You make my point. Our equipment is not based, tested and standardized around grounded Ys, but deltas and there 6x transients.


Case in point: why aren't slash rated 3 phase breakers typical?

I thought for companies using grounded Y systems, slash rated was the norm. Shows you what I know (or don't know)

 

[mbrooke]

I thought for companies using grounded Y systems, slash rated was the norm. Shows you what I know (or don't know)

I myself don't know much about the topic. But I have noticed this: When you buy a 3 phase breakers its always straight rated. When I buy a 2 pole breaker I have the option of 120/240 or 240 volts.


What makes me wonder, why can't I buy a 120/208 3 pole breaker and save 40 dollars when I know its going into a wye grounded panel-board?

 

[jim dungar]

I myself don't know much about the topic.

I noticed.

The answer is still the same. Breakers and panelboards built specifically for 120V L-G and 240V L-L do not meet the US requirements for insulation and or clearance.
It has been this way for approaching 100 yrs.

Yes, manufacturers do make slash rated 480Y/277V 3-pole breakers. Square D introduced their EHB family some 40 years ago. They currently offer their NF panel series as slash/rated. Back in 1982, ITE (GOULD) had an NHB panelboard that was rated 480Y/277 3Phase 4Wire only. At least as far back as 1989, the Westinghouse, and now Eaton, GHB line of breakers is slash rated.

 

[mbrooke]

I noticed.

Worse not asking. Or questioning. Being humble helps too...

The answer is still the same. Breakers and panelboards built specifically for 120V L-G and 240V L-L do not meet the US requirements for insulation and or clearance.

Most aren't though- most panels are tri 120/240, 120/208 and 240 volts, indicating a 240 volt L-G.

It has been this way for approaching 100 yrs.

At a time when ungrounded delta ruled making it a driver behind the standards.

Yes, manufacturers do make slash rated 480Y/277V 3-pole breakers. Square D introduced their EHB family some 40 years ago. They currently offer their NF panel series as slash/rated. Back in 1982, ITE (GOULD) had an NHB panelboard that was rated 480Y/277 3Phase 4Wire only. At least as far back as 1989, the Westinghouse, and now Eaton, GHB line of breakers is slash rated.

What was different about those Y only panelboards?

 

[jim dungar]

What was different about those Y only panelboards?

Their insulation and clearances were sufficient to be used at 277V L-G and 480V L-L. These are the same differences as you will find in any of today's products.

 

[mbrooke]

Their insulation and clearances were sufficient to be used at 277V L-G and 480V L-L. These are the same differences as you will find in any of today's products.

Were they cheaper? Do you have a catalog or listing?

 

[mbrooke]

Their insulation and clearances were sufficient to be used at 277V L-G and 480V L-L. These are the same differences as you will find in any of today's products.

And for the record want to say this: I am questioning a 100 year old standard which from what I do know holds less basis in reality like it once did. With the proliferation of solar and data centers I think UL's listing for paneboards and breakers needs to be re-evaluated. I am in the field of thought that modern panel-boards as they exist can handle higher voltages L-L without dielectric breakdown and without hazard throughout their in service life. The standards based on legacy material and legacy systems none existent or less common today.

It is known that:

1) UL standards restrict equipment to a lower voltage where the same identical equipment is legally allowed on higher system voltages outside the US. There are no reported issues or loss of equipment life.

2) UL refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of IEC 60898 and IEC 60947 as branch over current protection, but does so only as supplemental protection.


Where this becomes a matter of public interest being that it raises the price of data center and solar installations inside the US. More money is spent on larger, bulkier, more expensive equipment that offers no advantage to life and property.


There is also the issue of OCPD cost, some breakers being nothing more then a few extra plates within the arc chute to raise AIC yet end up tripling the price of the OCPD. Though this is more a manufacter's issue of setting cost rather then a UL or code issue and I will keep it out of the conversation for now.

 

[jim dungar]

Where this becomes a matter of public interest being that it raises the price of data center and solar installations inside the US. More money is spent on larger, bulkier, more expensive equipment that offers no advantage to life and property.


There is also the issue of OCPD cost, some breakers being nothing more then a few extra plates within the arc chute to raise AIC yet end up tripling the price of the OCPD. Though this is more a manufacter's issue of setting cost rather then a UL or code issue and I will keep it out of the conversation for now.

Do you have any proof that applying 416Y/240V equipment on 480Y/277 systems is safe? You keep focusing on the interrupting capacity and yet seem to totally ignore the other factors like insulation and clearances. The interrupting rating of device, especially when mounted onto panelboard bussing, involves more than just plates to quench the arc. The arc byproducts, like hot gasses, also need to managed, venting them into an area without sufficient insulation can lead to flashovers occurring in uncontrolled areas. Product design and testing cost manufacturers money. I do not know of many data centers that want residential quality equipment to be installed even though it costs less to procure and has a smaller foot print.

But it appears you have a personal agenda and are not really interested in anything else.

 

[mbrooke]

Do you have any proof that applying 416Y/240V equipment on 480Y/277 systems is safe?

No direct or explicit proof other then testing under IEC-61439 standard would yield a pass for most panel boards as I interpret it now.

You keep focusing on the interrupting capacity and yet seem to totally ignore the other factors like insulation and clearances.

Not ignoring clearance- it is my theory that the insulation, barriers and live parts clearance is sufficient to withstand the max nominal of 277/480 volts.

The interrupting rating of device, especially when mounted onto panelboard bussing, involves more than just plates to quench the arc. The arc byproducts, like hot gasses, also need to managed, venting them into an area without sufficient insulation can lead to flashovers occurring in uncontrolled areas. Product design and testing cost manufacturers money.

Correct- especially as you get into higher AICs. You need a bigger breaker and more hot gas to vent.

I do not know of many data centers that want residential quality equipment to be installed even though it costs less to procure and has a smaller foot print.

There are plenty across the world that do fine with even cheaper DIN rail equipment. Plenty of commercial that does well with load centers- the cheap ones that come with the KOs already stamped. Code should not dictate design.

But it appears you have a personal agenda and are not really interested in anything else.

So this stuff can not be questioned? I'd like an electrician to be able to wire some ball field lights with less money if physics allows it.

 

[romex jockey]

Product design and testing cost manufacturers money.

In more ways than most realize.....

~RJ~

 

[olsondavidj]

Not ignoring clearance- it is my theory that the insulation, barriers and live parts clearance is sufficient to withstand the max nominal of 277/480 volts.

Well that's just it, that's your theory.

My theory is that if those devices could pass the testing required to be applied to 480Y/277V, they would do it.

Think of it this way: they have to pay for the testing of the 120/240 product and the 480Y/277V product in order to sell a product with a listing on it. That cost is sunk regardless, and frankly is minor in comparison to all the R&D required to develop a product.

So then why would they manufacture a completely different product JUST to meet 480Y/277 standards if their existing 120/240V product can do it just fine? If they could find a cost-effective way to do this, I guarantee they would do it, because it would give them a leg up on their competition.

Alternatively, they're all in collusion with each other to maintain the status quo. Price fixing, while illegal, is not unheard of, and this sort of industry has a high enough barrier to entry where it's not like someone can come out of nowhere and sell a better circuit breaker for cheaper. So it's a very real possibility that they all have off-the-books handshake agreements with each other not to pursue this avenue.

I think the "it's not cost-effective" scenario is much more likely, though.

So this stuff can not be questioned? I'd like an electrician to be able to wire some ball field lights with less money if physics allows it.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't question it. But the thing is, the physics probably DON'T allow it. I'm not about to argue that standards are perfect, but they're designed by someone a hell of a lot smarter than I am, that's for sure. The standards and testing procedures are rooted in physics to begin with.

And also keep in mind that representatives from manufacturers sit on these standards committees. They hold a lot of power when it comes to standards writing, so if they thought the standards were unfair then they would be the first to lobby to change it, because it impacts their bottom dollar.

 

[drcampbell]

What part about electrical clearances L-L and L-G are you not getting?

480Y/277V panel interiors need more L-L clearances or insulation in order to deal with the higher voltages. In many cases the path taken by the gasses, produced during current interruption also need to be consider in the design of the bussing insulation. All of this can lead to longer length interiors being required for 480Y/277. Most panelboard manufacturers have standard size boxes that are sometimes used for both 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V panels, which are often in 6"increments. So if the increased clearances for 480Y277V makes the interior 1/4" larger than at 208Y/120V they might have to use the next larger box. ...

I have every confidence what you say is true, but you seem to be answering the question, "Why does 480 equipment cost the manufacturer 2x more to make?", not "Why does 480 equipment cost us 20x more to buy?"

The answer is marketing. Manufacturers set the price disproportionately higher for no deeper reason than because they can. There are thousands of buyers and dozens of sellers, so buyers have little or no power to influence the transaction price. The manufacturing cost has NO influence on the sale price. (except for creating a perception of greater value in the buyers' minds and an opportunity for the manufacturer to raise it)

All this chatter about the physical characteristics of 480 equipment completely misses the mark.

 

[sameguy]

Well that's just it, that's your theory.

My theory is that if those devices could pass the testing required to be applied to 480Y/277V, they would do it.

Think of it this way: they have to pay for the testing of the 120/240 product and the 480Y/277V product in order to sell a product with a listing on it. That cost is sunk regardless, and frankly is minor in comparison to all the R&D required to develop a product.

So then why would they manufacture a completely different product JUST to meet 480Y/277 standards if their existing 120/240V product can do it just fine? If they could find a cost-effective way to do this, I guarantee they would do it, because it would give them a leg up on their competition.

Alternatively, they're all in collusion with each other to maintain the status quo. Price fixing, while illegal, is not unheard of, and this sort of industry has a high enough barrier to entry where it's not like someone can come out of nowhere and sell a better circuit breaker for cheaper. So it's a very real possibility that they all have off-the-books handshake agreements with each other not to pursue this avenue.

I think the "it's not cost-effective" scenario is much more likely, though.



I don't think anyone is saying you can't question it. But the thing is, the physics probably DON'T allow it. I'm not about to argue that standards are perfect, but they're designed by someone a hell of a lot smarter than I am, that's for sure. The standards and testing procedures are rooted in physics to begin with.

And also keep in mind that representatives from manufacturers sit on these standards committees. They hold a lot of power when it comes to standards writing, so if they thought the standards were unfair then they would be the first to lobby to change it, because it impacts their bottom dollar.

True.
Just look at N.E.M.A. vs IEC ; the standard in the U.S. On breakers has been around for ever +or -, why retool if no industry/ government pressure. Everything is about the bottom line or why be in business (regardless of your political ideology) no profit no business. Our breakers get installed one time for 40 years and I would guess resi. Vs commercial vs industrial is also the order of sales; so yes the price will increase accordingly. I just hope "big business " stays big as being retired I like my dividends! and you should/will too.

 

[olsondavidj]

I have every confidence what you say is true, but you seem to be answering the question, "Why does 480 equipment cost the manufacturer 2x more to make?", not "Why does 480 equipment cost us 20x more to buy?"

The answer is marketing. Manufacturers set the price disproportionately higher for no deeper reason than because they can. There are thousands of buyers and dozens of sellers, so buyers have little or no power to influence the transaction price. The manufacturing cost has NO influence on the sale price. (except for creating a perception of greater value in the buyers' minds and an opportunity for the manufacturer to raise it)

All this chatter about the physical characteristics of 480 equipment completely misses the mark.

So if we ignore physical characteristics and just look at the economics, I'd still have to disagree.

Yes, a manufacturer will absolutely sell something for as much money as people will buy it for. But this is not a monopoly situation: there are MANY manufacturers for 480V gear. Therefore, the market is in control of the pricing, not the manufacturers.

All else equal, a rational market will buy the cheapest option that suits their needs, which means the manufacturers will be forced to compete with each other to provide the best solution at the lowest price. This will drive price down to an equilibrium point where it naturally stabilizes, and that point will be where manufacturers are no longer able to lower the price and still make money.

This is where the manufacturing cost absolutely influences the sale price. The only way to lower the price further (and stay in business) is to find cost-reduction measures that the competition hasn't figured out yet. Side note: this is where the 480v characteristics discussion is relevant. If someone could get their 120/240V gear tested and approved for 480Y/277V usage, that would result in massive cost savings since they now have a single product that covers everything 480Y/277V and below, yet costs the same as the 120/240V gear.

In reality, not all breakers are created equal, and the market is not always rational, so obviously the price is based on more than just manufacturing cost. But at the end of the day, if the pricing is WAY higher than is justified, someone will eventually exploit that and sell for cheaper to steal sales from the competition.

So with all that said, in a non-monopoly situation, the only way the manufacturers can maintain arbitrarily high pricing is if they are colluding and price fixing. This is anti-competitive behavior and is illegal (in the US at least). Not saying it doesn't happen, but if they get caught they'll be in big trouble.

So going back to other theories visited in this discussion, my opinion is that the 480V gear costs more because a) actual material costs are higher than 120/240 gear and b) volume is likely lower, so your fixed costs (R&D, testing/listing, property taxes, etc.) aren't diluted as much as they are in higher volume product.

 

[mbrooke]

Well that's just it, that's your theory.

My theory is that if those devices could pass the testing required to be applied to 480Y/277V, they would do it.

You are correct- they will not pass UL testing. But they will pass IEC testing, as evidenced by the fact the same equipment limited to 240 volts here is approved and used on 416 volts over seas.

Think of it this way: they have to pay for the testing of the 120/240 product and the 480Y/277V product in order to sell a product with a listing on it. That cost is sunk regardless, and frankly is minor in comparison to all the R&D required to develop a product.

So then why would they manufacture a completely different product JUST to meet 480Y/277 standards if their existing 120/240V product can do it just fine? If they could find a cost-effective way to do this, I guarantee they would do it, because it would give them a leg up on their competition.

Simple, in order to pass UL tests, the product must be designed to 480 volts standards if they want to sell it for 480 volt use.


To be fair when you get into higher AICs you need bigger breakers and as such panel baords to accommodate that- but remember- higher AICs...

Alternatively, they're all in collusion with each other to maintain the status quo. Price fixing, while illegal, is not unheard of, and this sort of industry has a high enough barrier to entry where it's not like someone can come out of nowhere and sell a better circuit breaker for cheaper. So it's a very real possibility that they all have off-the-books handshake agreements with each other not to pursue this avenue.

I think the "it's not cost-effective" scenario is much more likely, though.

And whose to say said standards can not be influenced either? Remember manufacturers pay UL to do its thing.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't question it. But the thing is, the physics probably DON'T allow it. I'm not about to argue that standards are perfect, but they're designed by someone a hell of a lot smarter than I am, that's for sure. The standards and testing procedures are rooted in physics to begin with.

And also keep in mind that representatives from manufacturers sit on these standards committees. They hold a lot of power when it comes to standards writing, so if they thought the standards were unfair then they would be the first to lobby to change it, because it impacts their bottom dollar.

Of course, so wouldn't smart person factor in 6x over voltages into the dielectric withstand testing when they know the equipment is going into such an installation most of the time (ungrounded delta)?

Would their bottom dollar be impacted when raising the price of 480 volt equipment still results in its purchase? Money still saved over all on the project by using smaller conductors and fewer circuits? Money is made most where it saves the customer money...

I remember when 14-2-2 first came out being more expensive then two 14-2s, but I used it anyway because it saved labor.

 

[mbrooke]

True.
Just look at N.E.M.A. vs IEC ; the standard in the U.S. On breakers has been around for ever +or -, why retool if no industry/ government pressure. Everything is about the bottom line or why be in business (regardless of your political ideology) no profit no business. Our breakers get installed one time for 40 years and I would guess resi. Vs commercial vs industrial is also the order of sales; so yes the price will increase accordingly. I just hope "big business " stays big as being retired I like my dividends! and you should/will too.

On I think must ask why UL and others so vehemently reject the IEC standards. We are one of the few countries that avoids them like a plague, yet have no trouble joining their committees out of prestige:

https://www.ansi.org/standards_activities/iec_programs/overview?menuid=3


In other countries people have the consumer choice of UL equipment vs IEC equipment, both on display on supply stores. Not just contactors.

 

[mbrooke]

I have every confidence what you say is true, but you seem to be answering the question, "Why does 480 equipment cost the manufacturer 2x more to make?", not "Why does 480 equipment cost us 20x more to buy?"

The answer is marketing. Manufacturers set the price disproportionately higher for no deeper reason than because they can. There are thousands of buyers and dozens of sellers, so buyers have little or no power to influence the transaction price. The manufacturing cost has NO influence on the sale price. (except for creating a perception of greater value in the buyers' minds and an opportunity for the manufacturer to raise it)

All this chatter about the physical characteristics of 480 equipment completely misses the mark.

All I'll say is that you are on the right track, and I agree with you