Why ECs shouldn't do voice and data wiring.
- Thread starter hbiss
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mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Yeah, fair is fair. If the low voltage contractor wants to hand out grilled cheese sandwiches to the electrical contractor, he can have the work.emahler said:
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
I don't think it's funny at all gentlemen. You can laugh it off, scoff at it and spin it all you want. Fact of the matter is, no matter how you cut it many ECs are no more competant to do voice and data than the common DIYer. DIYers usually do the work for themselves, unfortunately incompetant ECs win the confidance of their customer and take their money for the privilege.
This is a big problem and not at all limited to a few isolated instances. I know that there are some ECs out there who do a fine job and personally I don't care who does LV wiring as long as it's done right. But if you are too lazy, don't care or are too mentally challenged to learn how to install these systems properly stay out of it. You are only giving the trade a black eye.
-Hal
This is a big problem and not at all limited to a few isolated instances. I know that there are some ECs out there who do a fine job and personally I don't care who does LV wiring as long as it's done right. But if you are too lazy, don't care or are too mentally challenged to learn how to install these systems properly stay out of it. You are only giving the trade a black eye.
-Hal
M
mkoloj
Guest
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
I have seen low end production housing with home runs for the tele\data wiring, if he only did it for the voice maybe he could get away with saying he wasn't informed of what was necessary but when the data is looped he is clearly not qualified to do the work and anyone that says he was not informed is full of
IMO tele\data is a niche of the electrical field and needs specialized knowledge when dealing with complex installs.
The old saying "Jack of all trades and a master of none." comes to mind when thinking about this.
There are some EC's that should not touch tele\data work and other EC's that have tele\data divisions that employ the masters of that niche of the field and perform flawless work.
The sparky that did the tele\data wiring in a 6000 sq. ft. custom home as described by Hbiss clearly has no business near dial tone just like a residential electrician has no business wiring up a POCO sub-station.
Learning on the customer's dime about something you have no clue about is called being a hack in my book and IMO is no better than the "trunk slammers" I sometimes hear sparkies talking about on this site.
Just because it is has to do with wires does not make it every electrician's specialty.
If the EC that did the wiring gets called in to install the phone system I would love to hear the lines they use to talk the customer out of the fancy phone system.
Or will he show up with this system to replace that "piece of junk":
and impress the customer with his "Skillz".
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jrdsg
Senior Member
- Location
- Vancouver, Canada
hal's rant
hal's rant
hal you have my sympathy, in my fifteen years in the business i've seen it too many times to count.
ec's aren't the only guilty parties, however. many sites are being wired by a low-voltage contractor [security guys are commonly doing the catv, tel, and data as well] and there's a lot of sloppy low-voltage work out there done by all kinds of people, not just ec's. and in their favor, i've found ec's generally know the code better than low-voltage guys. this probably has something to do with more effective apprenticeship training in the electrical business.
in our market things are really competitive, and end-users are more likely to get ripped off by contractors that don't do enough [ie don't run enough wire and run it properly] than they are to be overcharged for a proper job. this is true across the low-voltage specialties. customers have also been conditioned to expect very low pricing for low-voltage and especially security work by the no-money-down sales model the larger companies have pushed for the last decade. that hasn't helped. thankfully we're almost entirely commercial and only do custom homes on occasion.
we've been lucky not to lose a customer in this fashion, but perhaps it's just a matter of time.
ec's that find hal's post a little too much might want to read it again from the perspective of a telephone system installer. ec's generally don't install phone systems or computer networks, just the cabling required. troubleshooting phone and network problems created by faulty [especially intermittently faulty] wiring can be a real headache for guys like us that finish these systems.
hal's rant
hal you have my sympathy, in my fifteen years in the business i've seen it too many times to count.
ec's aren't the only guilty parties, however. many sites are being wired by a low-voltage contractor [security guys are commonly doing the catv, tel, and data as well] and there's a lot of sloppy low-voltage work out there done by all kinds of people, not just ec's. and in their favor, i've found ec's generally know the code better than low-voltage guys. this probably has something to do with more effective apprenticeship training in the electrical business.
in our market things are really competitive, and end-users are more likely to get ripped off by contractors that don't do enough [ie don't run enough wire and run it properly] than they are to be overcharged for a proper job. this is true across the low-voltage specialties. customers have also been conditioned to expect very low pricing for low-voltage and especially security work by the no-money-down sales model the larger companies have pushed for the last decade. that hasn't helped. thankfully we're almost entirely commercial and only do custom homes on occasion.
we've been lucky not to lose a customer in this fashion, but perhaps it's just a matter of time.
ec's that find hal's post a little too much might want to read it again from the perspective of a telephone system installer. ec's generally don't install phone systems or computer networks, just the cabling required. troubleshooting phone and network problems created by faulty [especially intermittently faulty] wiring can be a real headache for guys like us that finish these systems.
M
mkoloj
Guest
celtic said:
If only everyone were so humble.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Cat5 / Cat6 and Fiber Optics make up about a forth of our work. It all pays.
M
mkoloj
Guest
Minuteman said:
Electrical work makes up 100% of some trunk slammers work and it pays them too.
Does that make it ok in your book for them to do the work if they aren't qualified?
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
I'm not saying that it's okay for anybody to do work that they aren't qualified to do.mkoloj said:
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hbiss said:
Hal....it's hard to get in a rage over moronic customers these days...been doing this too long. As for Homer and Sparky....let's just say if the telephone guy couldn't explain to his customer in one form or the other why the wiring was bad, it was a doomed relationship. It's like a bad relationship, sometimes it's best to just end it.
As for EC's and LV wiring, I agree....too many do not have any clue how todays technology runs. This particular EC is probably older (been doing Homers houses for 20 yrs) and probably doesn't even keep current on new electrical products, let alone V/D/V
That being said, there are too many LV guys who try to do EC's work (lighting systems, dimmers, run circuits for A/V equipment, etc) without a clue as to codes or correct installation practices.
Now, if this particular customer was a commercial customer with recurring maintenance...or was a customer of this guy who moved closer to him...i might be a little more upset.
but as it stands in this particular case....PITA customer without a clue, moves 2 hrs away and happily gets screwed by Homer and Sparky...There is poetic justice in here somewhere.
In general, I think if an EC wants to do LV work, he should take the time to learn how to do it. Get his certifications and go for it. But to use 20 yr old technology today (daisy chain), he should be shot on site....but LV guys who try to do line voltage work, should all be electrocuted...
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
hbiss said:
Yes. Somebody has to tell the EC that "I'm planning on a sophisticated computer driven multi-line, multi-featured voice communication system ala Merlin or Meridian, as one would expect to find in an office or business enviroment, in my home, so... all telco jacks must homerun to one central point. Oh and by the way, that central point should be indoors, have a means to power the switch, and either (should) or (should not be) punched down. And the REASON someone needs to do this is because it is never required in 99 & 44/100ths% of homes, where a simple 2-4 wire daisy-chain suffices.
No, the "attitude" that contributed to this mess seems to be your friend who, in his words The customer sends us away, refusing to pay a dime for our time. Two men wasted over half a day and a tank of gas to go there for absolutely nothing. Knowing how he treated us, I seriously doubt that he'll call us back when he finds out that we were right and Homer was wrong.
E.G. a contractor lost money - and nothing else matters. It's everybody's fault, or anybodys fault, and if you can blame the competition, especially the arch nemisis - all the better.
He had a bad day. We've all had them, and the common ingredient is almost always the same - lack of communication. He sent 2 men on an 8 hour joyride.
You might deal with massive or complicated systems day in and day out - but the chances of one home in a 200 unit development getting one are slim. When a customer requests a nonstandard extra but does not specify boo about the particulars, neither an EC nor a "datacom Con" is likely to get anything right.
From what you've offered (which is all 2nd hand info, BTW) it appears the GC is the one who dropped the ball - but I'ts just as likely the HO decided, last minute, to try to recoup his investment from the 1st home by bringing it to the second, new home, and thought that it was all plug & play.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I agree with emahler's comment - there's poetic justice in there somewhere. If the guy somehow gets it to magically work, then peachy. I think we know that won't happen.hbiss said:
Well, if nothing was said to the EC but "phone and data in every room", then something far different would have been installed, IMO. I can't imagine anyone competent saying, "Well, I don't know what that means, so I'll just loop everything like POTS phones..."Lawnguy said:
It may not be right for a fancy phone system inside the house, I have no idea. But I would simply use a different color sheathing for data and HR everything back to the basement, given no further instruction beyond "PH/Data every room." - And I don't consider myself half as qualified as Hal. But unless I were to be told something different, that's what they'd get, without specifics.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
mkoloj said:I have seen low end production housing with home runs for the tele\data wiring, if he only did it for the voice maybe he could get away with saying he wasn't informed of what was necessary but when the data is looped he is clearly not qualified to do the work and anyone that says he was not informed is full of
And if in a low-end production home, the developer asked for 2 data loops, because his "package" offers the HO ONE data port for each floor, and paid the EC accordingly, then a series of boxes and two cat 5 or 6e is what you get. It is not up to the subcontractor to give the work and the material away because it makes for a better job. If a HO or a GC or developer wants the home(s) wired as small offices or trading floors, he/she/they cannot expect that to automatically happen by saying "I want 2-phone lines in every room and data."
There is absolutely NOTHING complex about any tele/data install that cannot be taught to just about anyone in a matter of moments. There isn't a electrician alive that doesn't understand "2 separate dedicated homeruns of cat 5 to one central point from each port."
Does "Fractionalized McJob" ring any bells either?
And just because those wires are small, doesn't mean they require (excuse me if you can hear me LOL) "masters of that niche" to effect a proper install. BTW how long does it take, on average, to "master" the art of cat 5 cabling? IS it one or two days?
If the EC that did the wiring gets called in to install the phone system I would love to hear the lines they use to talk the customer out of the fancy phone system.
Or will he show up with this system to replace that "piece of junk":
and impress the customer with his "Skillz".
Please note that for all we know, the builder of this "Custom home" (which seems to be the designation given to any non-tract house) hired the worst, or cheapest (not necessarily the same) EC he could find. And for sure, we won't ever know how the lines of communication broke down, or if any even existed. In no way should one incident be used to determine the overall ability of an entire trade to lace a structure with silly string.
GeorgeB
ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
- Location
- Greenville SC
- Occupation
- Retired
That would have worked if the staple gun had been correct(or correctly used), I believe. I wonder if the EC ran the RG6QS as well, and if he looped THAT?.georgestolz said:
As everyone seems to acknowledge, the number one rule violated was to COMMUNICATE. From the APPARENT and REPORTED actions by the EC, he failed to determine the need, and ASS_U_MEd what was needed. Phone I understand; at one time (with POTS) it would have worked. But I've never seen data on twisted pair looped ... oops, Allen Bradley and those guys do with DH, ModBus, and that kind of thing, so maybe he assumed a slow industrial network. Blue hose forever! EIA485 allows 32 drops ...
Wow, What a mess that project house in Richmond is. The sad part is the story is all too familiar. Judging from the responses it will be repeated again and again. Let?s look at the 3 contributors to this fiasco and find out who to blame. We have the HO to consider first. HO?s only know what is desired as an end result so he selects a GC to convert his desires into actual final results. The GC is in charge of selecting subcontractors to handle various fields such as framers, plumbers, roofers and of course the electrical. For this scenario that is where the EC came into the picture. When the EC was allocated the voice/data wiring he/she confidently took the project in thinking they knew what they were doing and the end result is a major FUBAR and the 3 stooges are pointing fingers and probably threatening legal action.
Did anyone notice that the only time someone that had any knowledge in the voice/data field was brought in after the horse was already out of the barn.
I have noticed many comments such as ?there must be more to this story?! Sorry gang, there is no more, seen it all too many times.
The EC in this project missed a healthy financial opportunity. Had he/she consulted with a knowledgeable individual what was a cost effective loop would have become 40 home runs. Much more expensive to the HO but would actually work. The EC would have had a greater profit margin and so would the GC. Good chunk of money gone down the drain because the EC wanted to protect his territorial rights to run wire cause it is wire.
There has been several mentions of EC?s that do quality work in voice/data wiring. Those shops have knowledgeable staff in voice/data for a reason and it pays off financially.
Nice to meet everyone, see ya around!!
Did anyone notice that the only time someone that had any knowledge in the voice/data field was brought in after the horse was already out of the barn.
I have noticed many comments such as ?there must be more to this story?! Sorry gang, there is no more, seen it all too many times.
The EC in this project missed a healthy financial opportunity. Had he/she consulted with a knowledgeable individual what was a cost effective loop would have become 40 home runs. Much more expensive to the HO but would actually work. The EC would have had a greater profit margin and so would the GC. Good chunk of money gone down the drain because the EC wanted to protect his territorial rights to run wire cause it is wire.
There has been several mentions of EC?s that do quality work in voice/data wiring. Those shops have knowledgeable staff in voice/data for a reason and it pays off financially.
Nice to meet everyone, see ya around!!
When I opened my company as an ELC, my brother Joe, was my business partner and the duties were divided between us. . I was the "today" man. . I ran the jobs, scheduled/directed the men, met with the foremen daily, GCs regularly, and all materials came directly thru me [commonly right out of my van].
Joe has no electrical background but is fantastic at sales. . He could "sell refrigerators in Alaska". . He was the "tomorrow" man [sales/customer shmoozing] and the "yesterday" man [collections]. . I was teaching him bidding [which was on ongoing year after year project], and we both did billing.
On one of our jobs that was the electrical for a new house coming out of the ground, the homeowner was talking to my brother. . HO asks my brother if we could do the Ethernet in the house. . My brother said, "Sure ! . We do Ethernet all the time !" . He then calls me and asks, "What's Ethernet ?"
Until I closed down the business, my brother was referred to by everybody in the company as the "Ethernet Specialist". . Once a job was set up, I always tried to step in as soon as possible but many times I was too busy and Joe stayed involved during construction. . Those jobs were almost always "challenging" for the foreman and for the electricians. . When I would send a guy out to a new jobsite, every time the guy would always ask, "Is this a "Joe Job" ?"
David
Joe has no electrical background but is fantastic at sales. . He could "sell refrigerators in Alaska". . He was the "tomorrow" man [sales/customer shmoozing] and the "yesterday" man [collections]. . I was teaching him bidding [which was on ongoing year after year project], and we both did billing.
On one of our jobs that was the electrical for a new house coming out of the ground, the homeowner was talking to my brother. . HO asks my brother if we could do the Ethernet in the house. . My brother said, "Sure ! . We do Ethernet all the time !" . He then calls me and asks, "What's Ethernet ?"
Until I closed down the business, my brother was referred to by everybody in the company as the "Ethernet Specialist".
. Once a job was set up, I always tried to step in as soon as possible but many times I was too busy and Joe stayed involved during construction. . Those jobs were almost always "challenging" for the foreman and for the electricians. . When I would send a guy out to a new jobsite, every time the guy would always ask, "Is this a "Joe Job" ?"David
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Every time I hear the term "trunk slammer" I think of a competitor that started about the same time I did. He used a big car with a big trunk. I swear you could get a 5' ladder in it. He sold out a few years ago for several million. I have a nice truck with a service body.
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
ec's aren't the only guilty parties, however. many sites are being wired by a low-voltage contractor [security guys are commonly doing the catv, tel, and data as well] and there's a lot of sloppy low-voltage work out there done by all kinds of people, not just ec's...
You won't get any argument from me on that but that's a rant for another day. I just brought this up here because the guilty party happened to be an EC.
...and in their favor, i've found ec's generally know the code better than low-voltage guys. this probably has something to do with more effective apprenticeship training in the electrical business.
Problem there is who you learn from and whether you keep current. Also, unlike electrical work, the code doesn't have anything to say about minimum requirements for data and phone so there is no accountability. Other than using the proper wire, support and firestopping you are on your own.
-Hal
You won't get any argument from me on that but that's a rant for another day. I just brought this up here because the guilty party happened to be an EC.
...and in their favor, i've found ec's generally know the code better than low-voltage guys. this probably has something to do with more effective apprenticeship training in the electrical business.
Problem there is who you learn from and whether you keep current. Also, unlike electrical work, the code doesn't have anything to say about minimum requirements for data and phone so there is no accountability. Other than using the proper wire, support and firestopping you are on your own.
-Hal
M
mkoloj
Guest
LawnGuyLandSparky said:And if in a low-end production home, the developer asked for 2 data loops, because his "package" offers the HO ONE data port for each floor, and paid the EC accordingly, then a series of boxes and two cat 5 or 6e is what you get. It is not up to the subcontractor to give the work and the material away because it makes for a better job. If a HO or a GC or developer wants the home(s) wired as small offices or trading floors, he/she/they cannot expect that to automatically happen by saying "I want 2-phone lines in every room and data."
There is absolutely NOTHING complex about any tele/data install that cannot be taught to just about anyone in a matter of moments. There isn't a electrician alive that doesn't understand "2 separate dedicated homeruns of cat 5 to one central point from each port."
Does "Fractionalized McJob" ring any bells either?
And just because those wires are small, doesn't mean they require (excuse me if you can hear me LOL) "masters of that niche" to effect a proper install. BTW how long does it take, on average, to "master" the art of cat 5 cabling? IS it one or two days?
Please note that for all we know, the builder of this "Custom home" (which seems to be the designation given to any non-tract house) hired the worst, or cheapest (not necessarily the same) EC he could find. And for sure, we won't ever know how the lines of communication broke down, or if any even existed. In no way should one incident be used to determine the overall ability of an entire trade to lace a structure with silly string.
Every statement you made except for the "data loops" reeks of propaganda that is generated by an organization I am not free to discuss here so I am not even going to address you, it would be great if people had their own opinions and could carry out a rational discussion.
The "data loops" would not even by encouraged by your organization.
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