Why ECs shouldn't do voice and data wiring.

[dereckbc]

Hal, I think you are being a little unfair. You and I are somehat alike in that we have worked both sides of the coin. Doing LV cabling and termination is very easy, not a lot of skill involved which explains the lower pay wages and BICSI contractors

Any EC is capable of pulling and terminating LV cabling. In fact, I may be ignorant as it may already be fact, I would think union and other trade schools could teach a course in the matter of a couple of days to train any EC or a pet monkey to pull and terminate LV cabling. It is not rocket science.

Rule 1. Pull home runs.
2. learn 4 colors.
3. Use the right termination tools.

You get the point. :grin:

 

[hbiss]

That's exactly my point also. This ain't rocket science so the only conclusion one could come to is that these guys don't care or are incapable of learning.

-Hal

 

[dereckbc]

Hal what I see is no specifications and the lowest bidder won the contract. Sometimes you get what you ask for.

 

[EV607797]

I have to disagree

I have to disagree

Despite the literal jackpot of knowledge here in this forum, I must respectfully disagree on some points.

There's only been one standard for voice and data cabling for the better part of the past twenty years. The only variation and it is very minor, is whether the 568A or 568B wiring pattern is utilized. Even that doesn't really matter as long as everything is the same on the site. It's like reversing the black and red on a two-pole breaker. I'll be willing to bet that there's not one electrical supply house in this country that hasn't offered some form of training class or seminar for this type of wiring. I will even go one step further and bet that these classes are free of charge. I've taken them myself through Rexel and Graybar.

Those contractors who have felt that continuing to loop voice or data wiring are way behind the times. Screw-terminal wiring devices for voice and data are also years behind the times. The only answers that an installing contractor needs to get from the GC or HO is where the jacks are to be located and where the cable runs should originate. None of this "will there be a computerized phone system installed" stuff. It doesn't matter WHAT will be installed as long as the industry standard wiring method is deployed.

Whether it's POTS lines or a digital key system, we are talking about one pair of wires in most cases. They just can't all be twisted together like in the old days in many cases. I understand that in tract or production housing construction, home runs aren't going to happen and that's the builder's fault, not the EC's. For every EC that refuses to wire properly, there are a dozen standing by who will loop-wire a hundred outlets. On a larger or custom home, that's a different story

Why do manufacturers continue to make screw-terminal devices? Because there are still contractors buying them, thinking that they are appropriate for today's wiring environment. Not to mention, they are dirt cheap in comparison to the cost of the correct and current hardware.

 

[LV grider]

Pet Monkeys can do it!

Pet Monkeys can do it!

LV wiring is so easy even a pet monkey can do it. Only takes a few basic guidelines that you can lean in one day, at the most two.

So why is this story so common?

 

[mkoloj]

Any EC is capable of pulling and terminating LV cabling. In fact, I may be ignorant as it may already be fact, I would think union and other trade schools could teach a course in the matter of a couple of days to train any EC or a pet monkey to pull and terminate LV cabling. It is not rocket science.

Rule 1. Pull home runs.
2. learn 4 colors.
3. Use the right termination tools.

You get the point. :grin:

It actually is that easy but to really do it in an appealing manor it takes time in the batter's box.

If it is so easy why can't it be done correctly ?
Why do we hear these stories of incompetant installations of something a monkey can be trained to do?

I believe it could be attributed to a false confidence.

 

[brantmacga]

I believe it could be attributed to a false confidence.

most likely, but that would be their own fault for not paying attention in class. i'm in agreement that this is an extremely easy aspect of our field.

Screw-terminal wiring devices for voice and data are also years behind the times

i disagree on the voice. there's nothing wrong w/ a screw terminal phone jack.

Why do manufacturers continue to make screw-terminal devices? Because there are still contractors buying them, thinking that they are appropriate for today's wiring environment. Not to mention, they are dirt cheap in comparison to the cost of the correct and current hardware.

wtf? explaination please!

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

It actually is that easy but to really do it in an appealing manor it takes time in the batter's box.

Your statement here directly conflicts with your other statement:

IMO tele\data is a niche of the electrical field and needs specialized knowledge when dealing with complex installs.


Please note the highlighted text, which you let slip out yourself. What needs to be aired is not propoganda, but truth. Since we're not laymen homeowners or IT managers charged with getting a cabling task done, sales tactics & complicated jargon isn't going to hold much water here.

There is no such thing as a complicated install. Large installs with multiple quads and a high margin of profit, yes. Complicated? No.

If it is so easy why can't it be done correctly ?

It is done correctly, I've personally seen it done correctly hundreds of thousands of times by "non-specialists." Daisy chaining a POTS line in a residence is not an incorrect method of installing telephone jacks. In fact, Verizon does it all the time. I don't care if it's a 2 bedroom rancher or a 12 bedroom mansion. The GC and customer get what they pay for. But first they have to ask for whatever it is they want.

The fact that the EC in the OP's story stubbed 2 "data loops" and the telcos to the exterior of the home tells me that neither the HO nor the GC communicated the fact that there was going to be any "system" or hub at all.

Why do we hear these stories of incompetant installations of something a monkey can be trained to do?

I believe it could be attributed to a false confidence.

I attribute it to not enough bananas to get the monkey to dance.

 

[mkoloj]

There is no such thing as a complicated install.

If you can say that the only difference between this:

and this:

is the amount of cabling we will just have to agree to disagree.

If you want to short change yourself and sell 300' of looped cable instead of 3000' of homeruns that is your call.
If the money is there to be made you would be a fool not to partake.

The fact that the EC in the OP's story stubbed 2 "data loops" and the telcos to the exterior of the home tells me that neither the HO nor the GC communicated the fact that there was going to be any "system" or hub at all.

The fact that there is 2 data drops tells me that there is a need for a hub and a place to install that hub if all of the wiring installed was ever to be utilized at the same time.

I attribute it to not enough bananas to get the monkey to dance.

What does this statement do to add to this thread but to expose your juvenile tendencies?

 

[EV607797]

It is done correctly, I've personally seen it done correctly hundreds of thousands of times by "non-specialists." Daisy chaining a POTS line in a residence is not an incorrect method of installing telephone jacks. In fact, Verizon does it all the time. [/i]

Well, therein lies the problem. Verizon no longer hires qualified technicians and hasn't done so in years. They hire entry-level duds and train them in the most basic concept of parallel circuits and leave it at that. They slap in whatever bare minimum that they can to get out of there. Since they are a regulated utility, they get away with it. Thirty day warranty and nobody can afford to dispute them.

Yes, prior to the advent of sophisticated services such as FSK signaling (call waiting caller ID) and DSL service, and when the very thought of a second line was a luxury, then yes, looped wiring was adequate. That was also when there was one phone in the kitchen and maybe one in the parent's room. If you were a real maverick, you had a "bootleg" extension in the basement that the telco didn't know about that was rigged up with speaker wire. It's not that simple anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

Daisy chaining IS incorrect by today's standards. If you see it being done, then that's great. I also see people burying extension cords to wire their post light, but that doesn't make it right. I see people putting 30 amp breakers on 15 amp circuits, but that doesn't make it right. EIA/TIA sets the standards for proper voice and data network wiring, but nobody is out there enforcing their rules like the NEC does for other electrical work.

The fact that the EC in the OP's story stubbed 2 "data loops" and the telcos to the exterior of the home tells me that neither the HO nor the GC communicated the fact that there was going to be any "system" or hub at all. [/i]

Well, they really don't even make hubs anymore so I doubt that conversation would ever even take place. Today's hardware is referred to as "switches", with individual ports for each connected station (outlet). How can you connect computers to the Internet without a dial-up, cable or DSL modem AND a router at the point of origin of the individual cables? It can't be done. Are you implying that they should hang them on the outside of the house? Something tells me that I may have already answered my own question here.

I think that the overall gist of this entire thread is to state if you know what you are doing, then do it, do it well and get paid for it accordingly. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it and let someone who knows what they are doing take care of it. I don't see the harm in that line of thinking.

 

[mkoloj]

I think that the overall gist of this entire thread is to state if you know what you are doing, then do it, do it well and get paid for it accordingly. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it and let someone who knows what they are doing take care of it. I don't see the harm in that line of thinking.

Very well said, simple and the exact point that is trying to be made.

 

[infinity]

Very well said, simple and the exact point that is trying to be made.

And it took 52 posts to get there.:roll:

 

[mkoloj]

And it took 52 posts to get there.:roll:

Some people are too worried about their grilled cheese sandwiches....:wink:

 

[ceb]

Hal what I see is no specifications and the lowest bidder won the contract. Sometimes you get what you ask for.

I agree with this statement As a EC first of all no where in NEC code dose it say I must install phone lines. Now with that said the GC wants me to install the phone/data lines for two reasons, having the phone co. do it cost way to much, having a independent phone/data co. do it cost a lot also so what dose the cheap a** GC want "tada" me to do it. However, I know not to loop,not mix with line voltage and so on and I have a guy that dose a very good job of punching down the jacks and network system and I charge like H*** for it but the GC thinks he is getting a bargain. The bottom line of this original situation is the home owner will not get his system to do as he wants and some one will haft to redo it. Who pays, that is going to be between the home owner and GC. The GC will only be able to BS the homeowner for only so long. If you cut your hand off but do not believe you have cut your hand off and three different doctors tell you that your hand has been cut off hopefully you will believe it.

 

[hbiss]

I think many times it's greed. "I'll be damned if I'm going to give up $$$$ and give it to somebody else". So they just throw something together that they think will work.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

The bottom line of this original situation is the home owner will not get his system to do as he wants and some one will haft to redo it.

That's not true. If you don't loop and install all home runs there will be NO problem, regardless of if the homeowner wants a single line and single line phones or a sophisticated key system with a dozen lines. That's all it takes and is the reason home runs have been the standard for years.

The only problem might be that the jacks are not in the right places but that's another story.

-Hal

 

[MAK]

If you are concerned about losing the customer or the impression the company left you could write a report on what infrastructure was provided and give a list of requirements for the system to function correctly. The HO is going to want this because it sounds like someone might get sued (right or wrong). Probably make the VD company look alright or at the very least leave a not so crappy impression . As far as who should install that type of system I agree with the others that only those that are proficient in that type of work should attempt to do so (EC or LV). A 6000ft home should have provided a large enough clue as to what questions should have been asked regarding phone & data.

 

[ceb]

The bottom line of this original situation is the home owner will not get his system to do as he wants and some one will haft to redo it.

That's not true. If you don't loop and install all home runs there will be NO problem, regardless of if the homeowner wants a single line and single line phones or a sophisticated key system with a dozen lines. That's all it takes and is the reason home runs have been the standard for years.

The only problem might be that the jacks are not in the right places but that's another story.

-Hal

I agree, however I was referring to the original post where it was SAID the phone was looped and so was the data. You are correct IF they had all been home runs their would be no problem except with maybe location of jacks.

 

[dereckbc]

Well after playing a round of golf this afternoon and thinking about things on the nineteenth hole. Let me apologize to anyone I might of offended with my TRAINED MONKEY comment. Those that have been around the forum a while understand my sarcastic humor and know there was nothing personal behind it. It is hard to convey tone of voice, so I offended anyone please forgive me,

I still firmly believe the problem is a lack of enforceable standards, no specifications, and the low bidding aspect nature of the business.

HO knowing nothing tells GC I want a phone drop in each room, GC who is clueless bids it out to Two EC. One EC bids a looped system and the other bids home runs at twice the cost. GC chooses lowest bid. For POTS it will work, but not for data applications.

To me it is a total failure of all the parties to communicate with one another to understand the objective.

Once I sobber up by morning I might have to restate things. Beer and Ambien chasers are reakky workig hard right now and I cannot find the buttons.

Good Nigt.

 

[iwire]

I have to ask why some are so interested and concerned about how others install electrical systems?

I could not care less how other ECs decide to work.

I agree with Dereck when he said..

I still firmly believe the problem is a lack of enforceable standards, no specifications, and the low bidding aspect nature of the business.

As the standards are strictly voluntary there is practically no wrong way to install phone lines.

The GC wants a low price, the customer wants a low price and all the bells and whistles....it ain't going to happen with out job specifications.