Why ECs shouldn't do voice and data wiring.

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iwire said:
I have to ask why some are so interested and concerned about how others install electrical systems?

I could not care less how other ECs decide to work.
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that's because you are not an EC...you collect a paycheck at the end of the week and don't have to deal with guys who screw up the system...

there has been talk in this thread about installations and ease of...the problem isn't the installation of anything. We are all quite capable of installing any wire, any connector, any router, any jack...etc...none of it is difficult for anyone with mechanical ability.

The hard part is knowing when, where and why

Knowing what router, what switch, what type of patch panel...what type of phone system...what type of whatever is the same as...

knowing what size wire...what size pull box...what size motor starter....what size service....how many wires...etc.

The physical act of installing electrical wiring and/or data wiring is brainless..Look at all the ninja ropers doing resi new construction that can't lay out a house, but think they are electricians because they can install an outlet.

We are an EC, but have been doing V/D/V for about 5 yrs. Gone through the classes, have the knowledge...and still won't touch a PBX system - don't know a damn think about them.

But when we started doing data, we could get upto $400 for a drop, termination and testing....when more EC's started doing data, that rate dropped down to less than 1/2...the material cost isn't any different...the testers aren't really any less expensive...Just EC's who figure "this is easy" screwed up the market (just like we did with the power market)

just some food for thought.
 
mkoloj said:
If you can say that the only difference between this:
Office_Tour_Data_Center.jpg


and this:
serv_wiring.jpg
is the amount of cabling we will just have to agree to disagree.
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I think we can all agree that once you learn how to punch down, and the basic elements of hub and patch distribution, that a guy who has punched down 20 connectors is just as qualified as the guy who has punched down 20,000.

If you want to short change yourself and sell 300' of looped cable instead of 3000' of homeruns that is your call.
If the money is there to be made you would be a fool not to partake.
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Short changing myself would be to install 3000' of homeruns when the GC or HO only requested, and is only willing to pay for 2 POTS lines daisy-chained.

The fact that there is 2 data drops tells me that there is a need for a hub and a place to install that hub if all of the wiring installed was ever to be utilized at the same time.
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And wouldn't you think the need for a hub, and it's location would/should have been communicated to the EC if the GC and/or HO knew what was needed or wanted?

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky
I attribute it to not enough bananas to get the monkey to dance.
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What does this statement do to add to this thread but to expose your juvenile tendencies?
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I wouldn't classify an opposing position as juvenile. How will throwing in personal insults help?
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
...then a series of boxes and two cat 5 or 6e is what you get.
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This can be used very easily as a test to know if a contractor is competent in voice/data wiring. Cat 5 cable is a dead standard and has been for years. Cat 6e does not exist. Any qualified installer would use the phrase 'cat 5e' without even thinking about it. And cat 6 or cat 6a would be used instead of cat 6e.

There are standards for the installation of voice/data wiring that get updated every few years. And these changes have been much more drastic than any changes in the NEC. If an EC has never bothered to study the updated standards then they shouldn't be installing voice/data wiring. Just like an EC who's working from a 20 year old version of the NEC shouldn't be installing electrical wiring.

Every profession has unique knowledge that takes years to master. Places like this website have been created because there are so many little details that are unique to our industry that people unfamiliar with our work don't even realize exist. Mastering the NEC does not make one qualified to properly install voice/data wiring.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
I think we can all agree that once you learn how to punch down, and the basic elements of hub and patch distribution, that a guy who has punched down 20 connectors is just as qualified as the guy who has punched down 20,000.
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In my opinion? No.
Skills usually increase with experience.


LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Short changing myself would be to install 3000' of homeruns when the GC or HO only requested, and is only willing to pay for 2 POTS lines daisy-chained.
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Go back and read what I said, I never said to give away work, if the money is there to be made and you leave it on the table it is a poor business decision in my opinion.


LawnGuyLandSparky said:
And wouldn't you think the need for a hub, and it's location would/should have been communicated to the EC if the GC and/or HO knew what was needed or wanted?
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Wouldn't a competent installer ask for information if he had questions? Doing random things when the situation is unclear is a sign of inexperience in my eyes.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:
I wouldn't classify an opposing position as juvenile. How will throwing in personal insults help?
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If I wanted to insult you I would call you an idiotic brainwashed robot, but I wouldn't do that.

I am done arguing with you, it is obvious that you are merely looking for a way to rattle people, you can post on and on in this thread.
I am no longer wasting my time with you.
 
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emahler said:
that's because you are not an EC...you collect a paycheck at the end of the week and don't have to deal with guys who screw up the system....
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And you still did not answer the question.

You said a lot but really ignored the question.

Sell yourself as better then the guys that 'screw up the system' or is that just to much more work?
 
didn't realize there was a question...thought it was just a statement...please repost the question, and I'll gladly take a stab at it...
 
iwire said:
I have to ask why some are so interested and concerned about how others install electrical systems?
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I'm less concerned with how others do there work, and more concerned with the statement that I shouldn't be doing the work. I entitle myself to do whatever is legal.

Lack of specifications are often a problem. I guess this is somewhat the foundation that design/build was built upon. When specifications are lacking, I feel that I'm a sufficiently good communicator that I can ferret out the goals and expectations of the final install that I can give them a good product. The key is to document what you're going to do as a part of the formal contract to CYA.
 
What we have is a failure to communicate

What we have is a failure to communicate

This spring, I did a networking job that looked good on the walk through. The EC told me that he had 1" tubes in the floor to floor jacks and we're good to go.

A month later, after the concrete was poured and I started to run my first jack, I found out the truth. Yes, there was 1" conduit "T"d to 2/3 or 4 floor jacks with a 3/4" inlet and I'm supposed to put 4 data cables in every hole :)

Whose fault is that? The customer? The GC? The EC? Me?

Each of us had a reason for doing what he did and nothing would ever be solved by arguing or name calling. With some rearranging and some overhead cables, I was able to do the installation with 2 drops per hole and about 5 extra 5-port switches. I didn't P*ss of anybody and I got some extra cash for the additional labor. Was it right? No, but it still worked (10 base T is very forgiving).

For all of you to say <blank> should have known this.... Sometimes that isn't possible. The owner didn't understand or have a clue, that's why they hired me. The GC recommended me, and the electrician vouched for me. Far be it for me to bite the hand... The phone system installer should have asked the right questions before he sent 2 guys and a truck to the site. In my case, I asked the right questions, just not enough of them. That's MY fault.

I think, pretty much now, that everyone understands that V/D/V needs a better clarification that "just put a jack in every room." At least that's the hope of these posts. 20-30 sets of jacks in a huge structure ought to bring out the question box. I don't ever remember when the average HO had 20 bridged sets.

Carl
 
mdshunk said:
I'm less concerned with how others do there work, and more concerned with the statement that I shouldn't be doing the work. I entitle myself to do whatever is legal.
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Bravo! You hit the nail on the head!
 
ecs should and can do voice/data

ecs should and can do voice/data

We can do it all this isnt rocket science. You can do whatever you apply yourself to want to do. Data tel is a one trick pony yet a very profitable pony. CCNA in training. Save the cow pods for the customers.
 
I used to do fiber optic installs/testing/ fusion splicing. That got screwed up by lowball outfits also. Wataya gonna do.... Just switch targets, find a new nitch, keep it under wraps......
 
emahler said:
didn't realize there was a question...thought it was just a statement...please repost the question, and I'll gladly take a stab at it...
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Yeah it was tough to see....

iwire said:
I have to ask why some are so interested and concerned about how others install electrical systems?
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...but you don't have to bother with it.

It was really aimed at Hal and some of the others that seem like they are going to need high blood pressure meds if they see other ECs daisy chaining POTs.
 
It was really aimed at Hal and some of the others that seem like they are going to need high blood pressure meds if they see other ECs daisy chaining POTs.

Ok, it looks like some of you are still not getting it. Maybe I need to point out the obvious- the sun doesn't rise and set on you ECs. The planets don't revolve around you. Believe it or not when you finish whatever you do SOMEBODY ELSE is going to come along and have to deal with whatever you created. With Telcom and data that's ALWAYS going to be the case. Your work is going to be used by someone who knows far more than you do about it. There IS a standard, and if you don't know what it is you don't belong doing the work PERIOD!

THAT'S what this topic is about.

I feel so bad for doing such an evil thing.

THAT'S what pisses me off- the smart ass "I don't give a damn, I'll do whatever I want that will make me the most money" attitude that I'm seeing. You are part of the problem and not a professional if you don't at least acknowledge that there is a problem and take steps to clean up your act.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
THAT'S what pisses me off- the smart ass "I don't give a damn, I'll do whatever I want that will make me the most money" attitude that I'm seeing.
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No, that's not it at all. Lacking print notes and specs referencing a certain BICSI or TIA/EIA standard, the contractor is free to do whatever he wants to... contractually, legally, ethicly, morally, etc. Your gripe is misplaced with EC's and should be more focused on an educational effort to people who draw up prints and specifiers.
 
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