Why ECs shouldn't do voice and data wiring.

[mkoloj]

I use 2 pair Cat 3 to wire phones. Sometimes I even daisy chain it. I feel so bad for doing such an evil thing.

Is that the way you do it by default or only on projects where you have to be the low-bidder?
Do you ask questions about what the wiring is going to be used for before you wire things in a daisy-chain?

 

[hbiss]

Hal, why not just do the installs that make you happy... and accept life is not perfect.

Well, if you go back to page 1 and read the original post you will see that many times the installs we do depend on the installs you do. If we can't use your handiwork the customer becomes unhappy and WE can't do OUR job.

If everybody followed the simple requirements everybody would be happy.

-Hal

 

[emahler]

or very simply...do what you know how to do, and know how to do what you are trying to do....

ignorance is not a vaid argument

 

[iwire]

Ok, it looks like some of you are still not getting it. Maybe I need to point out the obvious- the sun doesn't rise and set on you ECs.

Maybe it should be pointed out that the sun does not rise and set on what you personally feel is the right way to install a phone line.

If everybody followed the simple requirements everybody would be happy.

Without specs or plans, there are no requirements.

 

[unionbro576]

Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

Let me start out saying this, The Electrical industry encompasses a very large field of knowledge and it is each electricians responcibility to take it upon themself to be in constant touch with the changes made in any standards you are currently involved in. I have always made a point to verify installation standards, and also have a very good line of communication either directly with the Customer or the General Contractor the work is being done for. Lets face it a little understanding goes a very long way. I have also seen thru the years many "Rope Jerker's" hired by a licensed electrician that I wouldnt let wire a dog house. An apprenticeship program is not only needed to produce more knowledgable people in the field, but it also teachs these people that things do change with time, and gives you a method to find the information you need to do a quality installation. Just because you have always done it this way doesnt mean its Legal, or a proper method to use for the rest of your career. There really is no excuse for a trained professional to botch an install, so long as the right questions are ask either to the Engineers who drew up the plans, or to the General Contractor, or Customer,that being said i would be highly critical of a person who does so being called a Electrician. And for someone to say well the plans didnt explain everything down to the letter, I do alot of work for the Corps of Engineers and other large Engineering firms, and have yet to see a complete set of plans that didnt have something left out, or conflicts, but Its up to us in the field to make the installation work. This may require a contract modification, or several Request for Information. This is why you usually always end up drawing up an "as built" set of plans. Lets face it Low voltage wiring is very simple. Everyone nowdays will have a computer in the home so data jacks will be the standard for any new home being built. Also Smart homes are going to be a defacto standard, you will see more and more of these homes in the future and I suggest if you want to maintain your share of the market you train yourself and if your in business you have your employees trained. We all are stewards of our trade, if you see someone screwing up, talk to them dont just insult them and tell everyone how stupid so and so is, get them the information they need to become better wiremen and explain why this is how it should be done. The single most scary individual i run across is the guy who knows everything. We never stop learning in this trade, because it is and always will constantly change with the times.

 

[LV grider]

Well said Unionbro576!!!

 

[mdshunk]

We all are stewards of our trade, if you see someone screwing up, talk to them..

Kiinda like the electric police? No thanks. If they don't work for me, it's none of my business. They're free to screw up as they please.

 

[iwire]

Kinda like the electric police? No thanks. If they don't work for me, it's none of my business. They're free to screw up as they please.

I agree.

It's just not any of my business and if someone came out of the blue telling me how to do my job I might not react very kindly.

 

[cnavarro]

Maybe it should be pointed out that the sun does not rise and set on what you personally feel is the right way to install a phone line.

Without specs or plans, there are no requirements.

I have to remember this statement, posted by at least 2 people in this thiread. Let's take that crap over to HVAC. The NEC is not a spec or plan, it's a standard and you still adhere to it.

Find those cute screw terminal jacks from an "American" manufacturer made in the last 10 years or so. Hmmm, can't find many and the price is rising rapidly. Why do you suppose that? And these brands are the same you buy at your supply houses for electrical: Leviton, Hubbel, Avaya, Panduit. So instead, you buy that Taiwan stuff and save a buck or two.

Now try to daisy chain insulation displacement jacks without beanies or UR's or some other crap piece of hardware. And just as a black or white or green or red wire has a function in electrical, without "specs or plans", the white-blue and blue-white wires in telco paired cables have a function and specific location to be terminated in a jack. Not your "orange to red and green to green because the colors are close" wiring.

Now be the guy who comes after you because, God forbid, you got hit by a bus and can't do the work. I know that in most any installation in America, that the first pair in a cable is White and Blue and the 14th pair in a cable is Black Brown and that the Ring of a line is negative with respect to the Tip and Ground and that a twisted pair is going to be used for a line. Not because it's in the "specs" but because it's a standard. I have reasonable hope that a cable that runs to a jack is going to terminate on a distribution point somewhere without splices and that all pairs are complete. They may not be terminated, but I'll know that when I open up the jack. Just the same as when I see an electrical outlet I know that it goes back to the panel that it's labeled to, and not daisy chained and spliced in a ceiling somewhere...well relatively.

Yep, it doesn't take any skill to run wire. I can run high voltage or low voltage wire. It takes no great skill to terminate outlets or jacks, as long as someone tells you where the wires go. The key is, if there's no one to tell you where to put the wires, then you better be learning it before you get too far down the road.

Carl

 

[mdshunk]

...and if someone came out of the blue telling me how to do my job I might not react very kindly.

I know. I kinda got turned off right away when I read:

I have also seen thru the years many "Rope Jerker's" hired by a licensed electrician that I wouldnt let wire a dog house.

It's hard to be a good organizer when you look on some other fellow tradesmen that way.

 

[macmikeman]

Everyone nowdays will have a computer in the home so data jacks will be the standard for any new home being built. Also Smart homes are going to be a defacto standard, you will see more and more of these homes in the future and I suggest if you want to maintain your share of the market you train yourself and if your in business you have your employees trained. with the times.

Data jacks in homes were a rage 5 years ago, replaced by laptops and wireless. "Smart" homes basically a dog an pony show for the rich, are also getting replaced with wireless control. Granted there is still money in this stuff to be made, programming for instance, and equipment sales, but the real future is not data wiring around the houses, no matter what Leviton or Beldon would like us to believe.

 

[unionbro576]

Its so easy a Caveman Can do it!

Its so easy a Caveman Can do it!

I should clarify my previous statement, and do agree with both of you as to not making my business to be the electrical police. What i intended to convey was if someone you have working for you or a co-worker was doing an improper installation, It benifits everyone involved to educate eachother on current practices and or code changes. Now with that being said, if i was on someone elses job and saw that they were doing Voice data video work,and they were not doing it properly then i may not say anything, depends on the situation. However, if i was on someone elses site and saw a life threatening situation due to a shotty install with higher voltage, I would make it my business... at this point safety is everyones business.

 

[iwire]

Let's take that crap over to HVAC.

I have no idea what you mean.

The NEC is not a spec or plan, it's a standard and you still adhere to it.

Yes we adhere to it.

It is a standard that has been adopted into law in many areas....there is no choice.

On the other hand I know of no Voice Data standard that has been adopted into law.

And just as a black or white or green or red wire has a function in electrical, without "specs or plans", the white-blue and blue-white wires in telco paired cables have a function and specific location to be terminated in a jack.

Heck even the NEC does not tell me what the color code to use for ungrounded circuit conductors. :wink:

Not because it's in the "specs" but because it's a standard. I have reasonable hope that a cable that runs to a jack is going to terminate on a distribution point somewhere without splices and that all pairs are complete.

So the real reason we should follow the standard is to make sure your job is easier. :wink:

I do very little if any Voice and Data, when I have there have been specs., it has also been commercial work.

But this thread started out talking dwelling units and to get all flipped out because the phones in a dwelling unit where daisy chained, or the data was not done to BICSI standards is in my opinion ridiculous.

The thing I find is many data contractors are ex-phone company employees who refuse to think outside the box.

 

[unionbro576]

Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

I know. I kinda got turned off right away when I read:
It's hard to be a good organizer when you look on some other fellow tradesmen that way.

Not trying to organize, just making a point. There are alot of qualified licensed Electrical contractors that hire unqualified labor to install romex in the residential market. even so, my previous post would still be my method for making these individuals aware of electrical codes, and showing them the advantage of going thru an apprenticeship of some type. be it Union or Non Union.

 

[mkoloj]

Heck even the NEC does not tell me what the color code to use for ungrounded circuit conductors. :wink:

Just out of curiousity, what color wire is terminated to the silver screw on the bulk of the 120v receptacles on the jobs you are on or run?

So the real reason we should follow the standard is to make sure your job is easier. :wink:

What would your thoughts be if you were on a service call and things were done in a code compliant but unorthodox manner and it made your troubleshooting more difficult than if things were done the way it is more commonly found?

 

[hbiss]

But this thread started out talking dwelling units and to get all flipped out because the phones in a dwelling unit where daisy chained, or the data was not done to BICSI standards is in my opinion ridiculous.

I can tell you about just as many commercial jobs that are done improperly also. I just had one a few months ago where the EC ran one CAT5e and one RG-6 to each desk. True, it was a small job with no specs but did he really think the "internet" gets distributed on RG-6? Or did he think there was going to be a TV on every desk.

I have never said anything about BICSI standards which I disagree with as much as you. I am only saying an EC needs to exercise a modicum of intellegence.

-Hal

 

[peter d]

Is that the way you do it by default or only on projects where you have to be the low-bidder?
Do you ask questions about what the wiring is going to be used for before you wire things in a daisy-chain?

I do it that way because it's all that's needed for phone lines. Why is it necessary to run dedicated cat 5 homeruns for every phone jack? I don't need to waste the money.

Yes, I know exactly what the lines are going to be used for. Once, I wired an apartment building with Cat 5. Dedicated home runs for every drop and all the bells and whistles. I come back later to do some more work on the building and sure enough, there are all the homeruns coiled up right where I left them. (Most renters have cell phones and never connect their telco line) There was only one line used and it was for a POTS line. So after that I never bothered to do homeruns and cat 5 for telco lines again. And to this day those lines are still hanging in the same spot.

 

[iwire]

Just out of curiousity, what color wire is terminated to the silver screw on the bulk of the 120v receptacles on the jobs you are on or run?

Out of all the colors of the rainbow the NEC tells how only two must be used, white, green & bare. All other colors are up for grabs.

What would your thoughts be if you were on a service call and things were done in a code compliant but unorthodox manner and it made your troubleshooting more difficult than if things were done the way it is more commonly found?

My thoughts would be it's just another day at work.

All electricians wire a building differently, from circuit layout, to the colors used for 3 and 4 way switches, do they bring the feed to the lighting outlet or switch box, do they join lighting and receptacles or keep them separate, do they pigtail or do they feed through the devices.

So the fact someone after me may have to take moment to figure out what colors I used for what does not concern me in the least.

Try troubleshooting a fire alarm system that has been modified 1/2 dozen times with 3 different wiring methods with colors swapping at each junction point and then maybe I will begin to feel bad for you.

Bob

 

[mkoloj]

I do it that way because it's all that's needed for phone lines. Why is it necessary to run dedicated cat 5 homeruns for every phone jack? I don't need to waste the money.

Cat 3 is all thats necessary for pots, no need for Cat 5e, it's cheaper and easier to work with on the terminations too.
The only thing Cat 5e is needed for is data.

Yes, I know exactly what the lines are going to be used for. Once, I wired an apartment building with Cat 5. Dedicated home runs for every drop and all the bells and whistles. I come back later to do some more work on the building and sure enough, there are all the homeruns coiled up right where I left them. (Most renters have cell phones and never connect their telco line) There was only one line used and it was for a POTS line. So after that I never bothered to do homeruns and cat 5 for telco lines again. And to this day those lines are still hanging in the same spot.

If they weren't used why even install phone lines on all future projects?
If you got paid to run those lines why even be concerned with if they were never used?
I wouldn't let one job where the wiring wasn't used dictate future installation practices.
In a large commercial setting how many voice\data cables are installed that are never used? Sometimes many.

More wire installed=more profit. Right?

All I have been trying to convey is that if the opportunity is there to sell and install a superior (at least in some eyes) cabling system, why not jump on it?
BTW in case someone hasn't noticed, some eyes = just about every phone tech that will ever come out after the electrican installs the cabling.

When we come across a newly installed daisy chained wiring pattern, there almost always is a joke cracked along the lines of
"Must have been wired by a sparky."

 

[480sparky]

Out of all the colors of the rainbow the NEC tells how only two must be used, white, green & bare. All other colors are up for grabs.

Not quite.

110.15, 200.6, 517(A)(5), 231.56 and 424.35 may interest you.