why no nutral for 240_480v load?

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ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I think there are too many misleading terms or statements being used in the code book.

Neutral only returns the unbalanced current that's true but its more complex than that.
And its just to plume confusing to folks just starting out.

I have no idea where the so called Return wire or conductor name for the Neutral
came from but that is completely misleading.

In reality it is the 120 and 277 volt conductor in our standard Electrical systems.

Another one is calling single phase lines Phase A and Phase B
instead of lines #1, #2 and #3 if three phase these terms became popular only after the Internet
became popular and the folks in the Electronic field and Electrical field got closely involved
together.

When you study Electronic the split phase transformers to them is a phase converter,and it
never even really did that it just give them a inverted voltage to use because the so called phase
inverter needed a different polarity to work with. These folks started telling all the Electrical folks
well that's just a phase inverter so its got to be two Phase. :?

Click here for the Edison Neutral"


But in the Electrical trade it is used for creating a neutral and three wires can do what it
normally takes four to do.

click here for a neutral illustration"

A 208, 240 or 480 volt circuit used for 200 volt nominal circuits do not need a so
called return conductor because they are a two wire circuits.Each conductor
supplies and returns the flow of current.

Ronald :)
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I think there are too many misleading terms or statements being used in the code book.

Ronald :)

I always thought it to best just to begin at the secondary windings of the transformer and the secondary winding connections.The the metod of which the transformer is connected to the load which could be a breaker or a panel. Then each transformer secondary could be compared as to how they differ from one another should be easier to understand.
Simply go through the common system voltages starting with 3ph systemsn supplied by trasnsformers that has a 480y/477 secondary, 480v ungrounded and corner grounded, 240/120 3ph4w, 240v delta ungrounded and corner grounded, 208y/120.
Then a 1ph 120/240 1ph3w supplied by either a transformer with a single widing shown with either a single wimding secondary with a center tap or a secondary with (2) identical windings commonly connected end to end .
Also a single phase 2w supply could be shown.
By illustrating these various configurations it should be easier to understand what the actual definition of a neutral is, what a grounded conductor is and what a grouded neutral is. Unless you are familiar with the various configurations and the terminology it is often difficult to recognize their differences.
I'm a big supporter of pictures of nameplates, drawings, one line diagrams etc as they are less likely to be misinterpreted'than verbal description.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I have no idea where the so called Return wire or conductor name for the Neutral came from but that is completely misleading.
Most likely it came from using sign conventions where one lead is designated as the one where current is leaving and the other as the one where current is returning. While the choice is arbitrary, we pick a point in time and by normal convention use a positive terminal with an outgoing positive current. Since the neutral is grounded in most cases, the natural progression of convention would be to call the neutral the common return for both circuits.

That is no different than in a four-phase system we note that the four emfs of the quadrature system have opposing pairs and thus can be produced with two coils. The choice of which phase is the return of the other is arbitrary. The non-symmetrical two-phase system with a 90 degree displacement is really just a sub-set of the symmetrical four-phase system.

One might note that the four-phase system, can be produced from a two-phase supply using center-tapped windings. That is, we produce four emfs from two emfs. These are four emfs of the four-phase system even though we can group them into two opposing pairs.


Another one is calling single phase lines Phase A and Phase B instead of lines #1, #2 and #3 if three phase
For a two-bushing transformer, they very well may be the same as the primary phases A and B. The crux of the matter is the definition of phase.

The fundamental definition is that any point on an alternating waveform is a phase. We loosely use this term to apply to an alternating emf or current in a circuit. With a single phase emf or current there is only one phase at any instant in time. Using opposing waveforms, we can have two waveforms with different phases present at any instant in time.

This becomes more obvious when one considers that with a 2-wire circuit, there is only current present: the outgoing on one wire is the incoming on the other wire so we only have one phase. For a 3-wire circuit, the current leaving line #1 does not have to equal the current entering line #2. In fact, the currents may have different magnitudes and may also flow at completely different times. The obvious case would be loads only between line #1 and neutral. Another is for a push-pull circuit. Not so obvious is when we have mixed or balanced loads.


these terms became popular only after the Internet became popular and the folks in the Electronic field and Electrical field got closely involved together.

When you study Electronic the split phase transformers to them is a phase converter, and it never even really did that it just give them a inverted voltage to use because the so called phase inverter needed a different polarity to work with. These folks started telling all the Electrical folks
well that's just a phase inverter so its got to be two Phase.
Not true, the terms have been around since the beginning:

These uses have been around as long as multiple phases have been around. I have references dating back to the turn of the century and, if I remember, back to the mid-to-late 1800's.

These include C.P. Steinmetz who said we can take the negative phase to be the return circuit of the positive phase, producing a larger single phase circuit. While discussing the symmetrical four-phase system he noted that it could be produced by two coils in quadrature with each other (as noted above). He also called the ordinary alternating current system a two-phase system that could be produced with one coil.

It also includes Terrell Croft who wrote the American Electrician's Handbook back in the early 1900's. Other old texts also do the same covering AC theory, AC machines, transformers, power system analysis & engineering, antennas, and audio as well as electronics.

Some of the original realization came about around the 1860's when experiments were conducted to see if they could combine two smaller forces to create a larger force. They found they could combine both in-phase forces and phase-opposed forces. Either way, the result was one larger single-phase force. We take it for granted today that two in-phase voltages can be combined to produce a larger single-phase voltage. We also know two phase-opposed voltages can be combined to produce a larger single-phase voltage.


A limited view leads to limited understanding:

The limited view is that there is only a single phase. The reality is that in the more general case the center-tapped transformer can serve as both a source for a single emf or for phase-opposed emfs.

This fact is used for supplying two-diode full-wave rectifiers. The fact that we can draw current at different times for each half of the winding is evidence that the currents are not just mirrors of each other and can be different in phase. Consider that a normal single-phase circuit the instantaneous power delivered to the load pulses at twice the line frequency. Now consider equal pulse circuits on two windings. If both pulse at the same time, combining the two produces a larger pulse at line frequency. If they were pulsing on opposing halves of the cycle, combining the two produces equal pulses at twice the line frequency.

If one looks at the double frequency result alone they might lose sight of the fact that there are two separate circuits and that these two circuits could differ in phase even if a particular case makes them look like something else.

Anyway, the fact that the center-tapped transformer can be a source for phase-opposed emfs is also used in creating high phase order systems and other neat things like creating a 4-wire 3-phase wye from an open-wye transformer.

In the general case, the center-tapped transformer is a source for series additive single-phase forces as well as phase-differentiated forces. Both sources map to the same physical space and to ignore one is to limit one's scope of understanding.


But a limited understanding is just fine for most:

A limited understanding is fine and will serve most people all their life. We see similar instances in physics where most remember the limited equation E=MC^2 but forget that it is not true for the general case.

As engineering students we were driven to remember that force equals mass times acceleration (F=ma). That works for most of the stuff we need (low velocities) but we may forget that it is not true for the general case (where we need force equals the rate of change of momentum with respect to time or F=dP/dt).
 

mivey

Senior Member
A neutral does not create a 'potential difference'.


A generator or battery can create a 'difference of potential' and conductors can be used to bring that difference of potential to where we need it.

The difference of potential does not care what we choose to call the conductors.
That's a good, plain, common-sense way to put it. The problem is, I think the OP has some basic misunderstandings.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I think there are too many misleading terms or statements being used in the code book.

Neutral only returns the unbalanced current that's true but its more complex than that.
And its just to plume confusing to folks just starting out.


I like to complain as much as the next guy and I do think the code book could be more user friendly but I went overseas to do a job and ended up having to use The BS7671 code (british standard).

After seeing how the other half lives I don't complain about our system as much. It could be a lot worse.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Forget the terms ground, grounding, grounded, neutral, or even AC/DC or multiple phases for a moment.

In any source there is voltage potential created in some manner, now bring just a little of AC concepts into the picture - primarily the fact that you will have a particular amount of voltage per turn of the source windings, but forget everything else you know about AC voltage for the moment, then look at this:

 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Forget the terms ground, grounding, grounded, neutral, or even AC/DC or multiple phases for a moment.

In any source there is voltage potential created in some manner, now bring just a little of AC concepts into the picture - primarily the fact that you will have a particular amount of voltage per turn of the source windings, but forget everything else you know about AC voltage for the moment, then look at this:

Now were taking!!
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
What are we taking?:)

My commemt was in regard to your inclusion of an actual transformer wiring diagram that illustrates a typical very elementary and simplistic 1ph single winding transformer with a center tap. This is an excellent example to start with.
 
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