wire three phase motor with single phase power

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brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
I just bought a rotary phase converter from Ronk Electric.... look them up. If you’re unsure what to buy call them for guidance.

It was right at $950 for a unit to run two 7.5HP motors.


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junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Add the correct size capacitor to one phase of a 3 phase motor and it will run just fine, but as already mentioned, at much reduced HP.

The below for technicalinformatin only, in no way to be construed as DIY <G>

My own phase converter, used to power a 5 HP knee mill, is a surplus 100 HP 460 Vac 6 pole 3 phase motor. I spin it up like gar said to do with a 1750 RPM single phase motor and then connect one phase 240 Vac single phase across one phase of the 460 V windings.

Runs 5 HP 3 phase motors just fine. Has been running fine for years. Switching on the 240 to the 3 phase winding disconnects the single phase motor. If I let it spin up too much past 1200 rpm, it 'knocks the dust off' when I close the 240V breaker.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The monkey wrench in the works would be machine with a proprietary motor such as a direct drive motor having a custom shaft,
Exactly, Or other custom feature that you won't find on a general purpose motor. If motor is or is easily replaced by a general purpose motor then it is often easiest to just replace with single phase general purpose motor. If machine manufacturer does make a single phase version it likely does cost more than a general purpose motor but is also an option.

Add the correct size capacitor to one phase of a 3 phase motor and it will run just fine, but as already mentioned, at much reduced HP.
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That is what static converters do, but they do have "start" capacitors that help accelerate from dead stop and then switch to lesser mfd for running. Even then you need to fine tune them to the load by adding/subtracting how many mfd are connected to the circuit. Works great for loads that run at a constant level, not so great for varying loads.
 

Craigv

Senior Member
Still say get the right motor. Some folks love to do these rigs "just because", and if spending your time and money on such projects gives you joy, or if you just have to have that post-industrial big-iron machine in your shop and don't want to ruin its cache‘ by re powering it, then go for it. But for a customer, or any situation where longevity with heavy use is a requirement, power it with a motor that fits available service power.

I have seen a 3-phase line running along a rural road with the 3-phase portion ending at a single residence with a big shop building out back. For some guys, the correct approach is to write a BIG check to the PoCo to bring in the right power....
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Still say get the right motor. Some folks love to do these rigs "just because", and if spending your time and money on such projects gives you joy, or if you just have to have that post-industrial big-iron machine in your shop and don't want to ruin its cache‘ by re powering it, then go for it. But for a customer, or any situation where longevity with heavy use is a requirement, power it with a motor that fits available service power.

I have seen a 3-phase line running along a rural road with the 3-phase portion ending at a single residence with a big shop building out back. For some guys, the correct approach is to write a BIG check to the PoCo to bring in the right power....
Big check to POCO is part of the issue here. For under ~15 hp single phase motors are possible option. Something over that typically there will be three phase service or phase conversion of some sort. In rural areas if three phase isn't already present it can cost much less to have conversion then to build three phase distribution to the site.

As a worst case one could even power a three phase generator from a single phase motor - until you get to that ~15 Hp threshold where single phase motors just aren't available in that size anymore.
 

Craigv

Senior Member
Big check to POCO is part of the issue here. For under ~15 hp single phase motors are possible option. Something over that typically there will be three phase service or phase conversion of some sort. In rural areas if three phase isn't already present it can cost much less to have conversion then to build three phase distribution to the site.

As a worst case one could even power a three phase generator from a single phase motor - until you get to that ~15 Hp threshold where single phase motors just aren't available in that size anymore.

Yes, and that PoCo check will fall in the "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" realm. And there are cases where the utility won't do it to residential addresses for any price.

For even the most serious hobby and even a lot of small commercial cabinetry shops, it is rare to see machinery with more than a 5hp motor, and even that is really pushing the envelope. I can easily build a small production woodworking shop with 5hp equipment. For metalworking, there's larger equipment used by hobbyists but still way under that 15hp rule of thumb.

No matter how I slice it, there's little reason to use 3-phase motors on single-phase power. For hobbyists there are multitudes of appropriate machines. And for commercial/industrial use, the location should have 3-phase power anyway.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes, and that PoCo check will fall in the "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" realm. And there are cases where the utility won't do it to residential addresses for any price.

For even the most serious hobby and even a lot of small commercial cabinetry shops, it is rare to see machinery with more than a 5hp motor, and even that is really pushing the envelope. I can easily build a small production woodworking shop with 5hp equipment. For metalworking, there's larger equipment used by hobbyists but still way under that 15hp rule of thumb.

No matter how I slice it, there's little reason to use 3-phase motors on single-phase power. For hobbyists there are multitudes of appropriate machines. And for commercial/industrial use, the location should have 3-phase power anyway.

It is always that "good deal" on used equipment where you run into such troubles. Even just installing phase conversion equipment sometimes gets the response - "that is more then I paid for the machine", to which you can usually reply "did you check how much a new machine designed to run on single phase costs?".

Most recent one I can recall though it has been maybe 3 years ago - a three phase rotary air compressor. Was only 10 hp, but was used and acquired "cheap" (I assume). They had someone else add static phase converter to it. It kept tripping motor overload and they asked me to look into it. My conclusion - it ran unbalanced as expected with that type of conversion, It ran at pretty low load level until pressure started to get closer to shutoff setpoint. We could tweak current balance to some extent by changing capacitor connections in the converter - but since load varied according to tank pressure could never have it balanced at all times.

Motor was an OEM motor and standard general purpose motor would not be a direct replacement without modifications -

My advice to them, we tweaked converter to have most balance at near cut off pressure, when the motor was loaded the most. Cranked overload protection level enough that it wouldn't trip at that load level though one leg was higher than nameplate FLA.

Since the thing didn't get constant use that helps some, but told them to just run it as is until it burns out the motor - which wasn't really predictable as to how soon that would be, and did depend on how much use it actually sees. Then replace with OEM single phase motor if one is available or get a general duty single phase motor and make any necessary modifications to make it fit.

Seems it had different shaft then a general purpose motor would have had from what I can recall was the biggest factor in not swapping the motor when they already had spent $$ on phase conversion equipiment, so might as well run it how ever long it will last and then assess the situation when that happens.
 

Craigv

Senior Member
It is always that "good deal" on used equipment where you run into such troubles. Even just installing phase conversion equipment sometimes gets the response - "that is more then I paid for the machine", to which you can usually reply "did you check how much a new machine designed to run on single phase costs?".

Most recent one I can recall though it has been maybe 3 years ago - a three phase rotary air compressor. Was only 10 hp, but was used and acquired "cheap" (I assume). They had someone else add static phase converter to it. It kept tripping motor overload and they asked me to look into it. My conclusion - it ran unbalanced as expected with that type of conversion, It ran at pretty low load level until pressure started to get closer to shutoff setpoint. We could tweak current balance to some extent by changing capacitor connections in the converter - but since load varied according to tank pressure could never have it balanced at all times.

Motor was an OEM motor and standard general purpose motor would not be a direct replacement without modifications -

My advice to them, we tweaked converter to have most balance at near cut off pressure, when the motor was loaded the most. Cranked overload protection level enough that it wouldn't trip at that load level though one leg was higher than nameplate FLA.

Since the thing didn't get constant use that helps some, but told them to just run it as is until it burns out the motor - which wasn't really predictable as to how soon that would be, and did depend on how much use it actually sees. Then replace with OEM single phase motor if one is available or get a general duty single phase motor and make any necessary modifications to make it fit.

Seems it had different shaft then a general purpose motor would have had from what I can recall was the biggest factor in not swapping the motor when they already had spent $$ on phase conversion equipiment, so might as well run it how ever long it will last and then assess the situation when that happens.

Yep, this is exactly the kind of false economy I see. Just fine if this is for a hobby, but in a professional environment the downtime simply isn't worth the initial savings....assuming there ever were any.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Since this thread has diverged somewhat and mods have not closed it, will add this for those with a customer who wants to run a 10 HP machine with a single phase motor.

Remember speed is pretty much set by frequency, so 4 pole motor about 1750 rpm.

Now, torque times speed is proportional to HP

And, torque is proportional to current.

SO, IF yu can keep a 5 HP motor cool, you can run it at 10 or even 15 HP IF you can keep it cool.


example: I power my 4 ksi, 4 gpm pressure washer with a 184 frame nameplate 5 HP 240 V 25 A (nameplate) motor. In operation, the motor pulls 48 amps at 240 V. About 10 HP but at a lowered 75% efficiency (eff drops running overcurrent)

One would ask - why does it not burn up? Simple, a furnace fan mounted on the motor with ductes to drive 1500 CFM thru and over the motor.

Have run for hours at a time, no problem.
10HP pressure washer.jpg
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... a three phase rotary air compressor. Was only 10 hp, but was used and acquired "cheap" (I assume). They had someone else add static phase converter to it. It kept tripping motor overload and they asked me to look into it. My conclusion - it ran unbalanced as expected with that type of conversion, It ran at pretty low load level until pressure started to get closer to shutoff setpoint. We could tweak current balance to some extent by changing capacitor connections in the converter - but since load varied according to tank pressure could never have it balanced at all times. ...
What's the antonym of "value engineered"?

... a 184 frame nameplate 5 HP 240 V 25 A (nameplate) motor. ... a furnace fan mounted on the motor with ducts to drive 1500 CFM thru and over the motor. ...
There's no way you're getting anything close to nameplate airflow through ductwork that turns two right angles (without turning vanes, I presume?) and pinches down to ~20% of the blower's cross-sectional area. Air likes smooth.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Somewhere in the interwebs, possibly here on the Mike Holt forum or on ECN, there was a description by 'Hillbilly Sawmiller' or some similar name, about running a large sawmill on single phase power. The description included starting a progression of ever larger motors until there was a large enough motor spinning for the load.

Wish I could find it again.

-Jon
 
Nice! Sounds like pretty much the same setup my father had. I bet the POCO loves him running those large motors at the end of a long line :angel:

I hooked up a 30 hp motor to a phase converter once. It was a residential area and the transformer was common with some other houses. Hope no one notices.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Somewhere in the interwebs, possibly here on the Mike Holt forum or on ECN, there was a description by 'Hillbilly Sawmiller' or some similar name, about running a large sawmill on single phase power. The description included starting a progression of ever larger motors until there was a large enough motor spinning for the load.

Wish I could find it again.

-Jon

Is that the same guy who made a wind turbine out of an automotive alternator and a fan, and tested it by mounting it on the front bumper of his old beat up pickup truck and driving it around? There were some pretty funny pictures of that on line at one time, but I haven't been able to find them lately.
 
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