Wiring configuration in 220v-240v countries

[rc/retired]

If we were starting from the scratch, the US system would be similar to the rest of the world - 230 or 240 V and no 120 V.

I have to admit that I am not a history expert. But didn't we start from scratch?
Ben Franklin, Tesla, Westinghouse, Edison and such.
I'm almost 67 and I can still learn.

Ron

 

[SKSolar]

Their 220v to 240v is one line plus a grounded conductor, derived from a wye system, much like a single 120v line plus neutral from a 208Y/120v would be here, if we used it that way.

So, with all the meandering (as per usual), do you understand what was being said?

To summarize: the way we do things here is very different from what’s done in most other countries, so the concepts for residential distribution that we understand don’t really apply outside of North America. They use 3 phase Wye distribution in the streets and their 220/230/240 Volts (depending on country and age) is derived from line to neutral. Their L-L would be 380/400/415 respectively, but in most places they don’t even bother to bring in a 2nd line, because they rarely need to. So most houses just get a Line and Neutral for incoming power and everything in the home is 220/230/240 at the wall outlets.

Thank you Sir.
Indeed I was lost what were being said. My understanding in residential wiring here, we have L1 & L2 and the voltage across the two is 240v. And we tapped either a L1 or L2 and their middle to get 120V supply. That configuration is neither wye nor delta.? Is there a name for that?

Back to my question for 220-240V outside US, is that they use a 3-wire or 3 phase system? And the voltage across (depending on which country) is either 380V, 400V or 415V, correct? So they take one lead and a neutral to get 220/230/240?

 

[tortuga]

Nobody uses the 415V aspect of it for anything.

In the last 3 or so years the HVAC such as Trane have recently started offering 400V 60hz motors in commercial equipment such a rtag, so there is no longer a need for two systems (480 and 416).

 

[LarryFine]

Thank you Sir.
Indeed I was lost what were being said. My understanding in residential wiring here, we have L1 & L2 and the voltage across the two is 240v. And we tapped either a L1 or L2 and their middle to get 120V supply. That configuration is neither wye nor delta.? Is there a name for that?

Yes. It's single phase. Many call it split-phase, but others prefer grounded center-tapped 1ph.

Back to my question for 220-240V outside US, is that they use a 3-wire or 3 phase system? And the voltage across (depending on which country) is either 380V, 400V or 415V, correct? So they take one lead and a neutral to get 220/230/240?

It's a 4-wire 3-phase wye, and correct, similar to our 208Y/120v 3ph.

Imagine a large apartment building, fed by 3ph, but each unit receiving only 2 lines and the neutral.

 

[tortuga]

The only reason why the 415Y240 exists here for data centers is because they can balance out the 240V single phase power supply loading across the 3 phases. Nobody uses the 415V aspect of it for anything.

Also I think there is a proposal to call it 416V in the NEC since that more closely matches our rounding traditions.
https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/silly-semantics-415y-240-or-416y-240.2576051/

 

[Birken Vogt]

The only reason why the 415Y240 exists here for data centers is because they can balance out the 240V single phase power supply loading across the 3 phases. Nobody uses the 415V aspect of it for anything.

In the last 3 or so years the HVAC such as Trane have recently started offering 400V 60hz motors in commercial equipment such a rtag, so there is no longer a need for two systems (480 and 416).

I bet it happens sooner or later. Since most appliances in the home and office (computers, LED lights) can already take 240 volts, and EV charging and other heavy loads would be so much simpler at 416 volts.

Most manufacturers of devices and such are already global, so it would merely take adaptation of their global devices to fit US standards.

I just hope they don't also adopt huge chunky Euro plugs and outlets, but they probably will anyway, rather than sticking with NEMA.

 

[LarryFine]

Also I think there is a proposal to call it 416V in the NEC since that more closely matches our rounding traditions.

I prefer 416/240 because it's twice 208/120, which makes it easier to remember where it comes from.

 

[David Castor]

Based on a particular high-tech company I'm familiar with, I'm more inclined to think that the next trend in the US for industrial and commercial will be moving to 600 V systems instead of 480 V. Of course, Canadians have been doing this for a long time. But change is hard, especially in this country.

 

[tortuga]

Based on a particular high-tech company I'm familiar with, I'm more inclined to think that the next trend in the US for industrial and commercial will be moving to 600 V systems instead of 480 V. Of course, Canadians have been doing this for a long time. But change is hard, especially in this country.

It always seemed logical to pick the top of the low voltage band so to speak. Canada's 600Y347 did, now with it bumped to 1000V I wonder if we'll see 1000Y577

 

[Besoeker3]

Were they always grounded wye?

Not always. Some were six pulse, one with a delta winding, the other star (wye). Some had 24-pulse. These were good for mitigating harmonics.

 

[Besoeker3]

The only reason why the 415Y240 exists here for data centers is because they can balance out the 240V single phase power supply loading across the 3 phases. Nobody uses the 415V aspect of it for anything.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[ramsy]

If we were starting from the scratch, the US system would be similar to the rest of the world - 230 or 240 V and no 120 V.

Do it on 4th of July, so the smoking zip-cords, extension-cord wiring, detonating meth-labs, fireworks, and house-flipper smoke ignite at the same time.

 

[SKSolar]

Based on a particular high-tech company I'm familiar with, I'm more inclined to think that the next trend in the US for industrial and commercial will be moving to 600 V systems instead of 480 V. Of course, Canadians have been doing this for a long time. But change is hard, especially in this country.

For the benefit of global consumers, a product should reflect a global standard and hopefully, every country would use the same standard one day.

You are right that change is hard. Resisting to change usually came from manufacturers as they didn't want to change their manufacturing molds.

In 1972 the world adopted System International to use the metric system and we are still the only few countries using the imperial units. Had we followed through that is already history.

The hardest is to have every country driving on the same side of the streets! I didn't want to drive when I went to another country driving in the other side for fear that when I come back I still have their sense of direction.

 

[Jraef]

I bet it happens sooner or later. Since most appliances in the home and office (computers, LED lights) can already take 240 volts, and EV charging and other heavy loads would be so much simpler at 416 volts.

Most manufacturers of devices and such are already global, so it would merely take adaptation of their global devices to fit US standards.

I just hope they don't also adopt huge chunky Euro plugs and outlets, but they probably will anyway, rather than sticking with NEMA.

No, not going to happen. EVERY panelboard and load center designed for 120/240V would be instantly obsolete and require being changed, because now the voltage reference to ground is more than 120V. We can't even get people to stop using screw-in fuse boxes...

 

[Birken Vogt]

Not saying it is going to happen to existing houses. But as the all electric and EV thing takes hold, it may start to make more sense in the 400 volt class. I know Euro cooking equipment already is there. Water heaters, HVAC and car chargers, all easy. The rest would be along for the ride.

 

[tortuga]

We don't need to change the entire US system. If I could just make one and only one small change in our existing 'system' I would convince all US appliance manufacturers to quit using 120 volts in ranges and dryers and make them all '240' on a NEMA 6-50 or a 6-30 recept that would be an enormous savings.
Then we could finally quit pulling a #8 (or larger) neutral to power the oven light & clock in every home in America.
And on service upgrades when the 250.140 exception is lost or appliance change outs happen all those millions of existing 3-wire ranges and dryers on SE cable or ungrounded romex could be just converted from NEMA 10-50 to 6-50 (or 10-30 to 6-30).

 

[lma76]

99% of services in Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela are 220Y/127 V 60 Hz. Most newer apartments will have a three phase panel. Some houses have a "split phase" panel using only two of the 127V legs (this is similar to network service or MDUs in the United States and Canada). In underdeveloped areas, with construction that would not align with U.S. standards, each "structure" (shack) will have only a single phase 10, 15 or 20A breaker and neutral from the three phase network.

It is pretty rare to see, however, in rural regions and paths along highways, there may be a little baby single phase 127 volt transformer for small equipment (e.g. a billboard sign or small telecommunications equipment). Likewise, a house in the middle of nowhere can be served with a 127/254 V "split phase" transformer (exactly like 99% of houses in the United States and Canada). Any decent building will always have 220 or 254 V (the latter pretty rare) L-L available for air conditioning loads.

Brazil is an interesting mix of various services (akin to Japan, in a way). Most of the rest of South America uses 380Y/220 V 50 Hz or 400Y/230 V 50 Hz.

Hi:

I little clarification here: in Venezuela we mostly have 208Y/120V 60 Hz. Also you can have 277Y/480V 60 Hz mostly for industrial use and general services in buildings like shopping centers, office buildings, etc. In shopping centers and office buildings, 277V is mosly used for very large lighting circuits, and 480V for HVAC, elevators, electric escalators, and so on.

We also have split phase 120v/240V 60 Hz, but that´s not very common. You will find these services only in small residential areas, with little or no commercial activity at all.
Finally, on request, you can have a high leg delta service, although that´s not very common over here. I once saw, and measured, one high leg service in an industrial park near Caracas, but mostly you will find high leg delta services in Zulia state. I guess because that is the hottest part of the country, and full 240V three phase was needed to power air conditioning equipment. A venezuelan electrician not familiar with that, *will* make a big mess when working there, as Zulia, and it´s capital, Maracaibo, is the only city in Venezuela where high leg delta services are a common thing for residential and commercial buildings.

To summarize 220Y/127V 60 HZ it´s not an standard voltage here.

 

[hbiss]

But as the all electric and EV thing takes hold,

When the current political fad dies the death it deserves, electric will develop according to the marketplace with fossil fuel being phased out when consumers think it is appropriate.

-Hal

 

[ramsy]

electric will develop according to the marketplace

Nonsense. Subsidy has stimulated clean-energy markets that didn't exist before, while learning to avoid embarrassment from Solindra type executives, who bail out on golden government parachutes.

The former fad just reciprocates subsidy & tax exemptions to big oil constituents who get them elected, nothing to do with the marketplace.

 

[Birken Vogt]

When the current political fad dies the death it deserves, electric will develop according to the marketplace with fossil fuel being phased out when consumers think it is appropriate.

-Hal

I agree in principle, but electric cars are here to stay. Because auto mfrs forgot how to make an engine that does not come to pieces, mainly.

How about if nuclear suddenly gets the fair hearing that it deserves? We'll go straight back to all electric and no meters required, energy will be so cheap.