- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: wiring in crawl space
I don't know and do not ask myself those types of questions.
wiring in crawl space
- Thread starter pope
- Start date
- Status
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: wiring in crawl space
Pope, we have spoon fed you every code section and given you every possible explanation to this code section. If this bothers you that much, please stop complaining, follow the code, or find another line of work.
Pope, we have spoon fed you every code section and given you every possible explanation to this code section. If this bothers you that much, please stop complaining, follow the code, or find another line of work.
Re: wiring in crawl space
I appreciate all of the input that you all have provided to me, and it does bother me that much because I have been a Master Electrician for over 20 years and have never had to deal with something like this with little or no explanation. I do not need to find another line of work, and that was pretty darn rude if you ask me, the whole point of this forum is to get advice, not smart a*s remarks from others. I am following the code, which leaves too much room for interpretation, which is why I decided to ask all of you to explain that to me in "LAMEN's" terms, because I do know how to read the Code Book, I was just looking for more insight and clarification.
I appreciate all of the input that you all have provided to me, and it does bother me that much because I have been a Master Electrician for over 20 years and have never had to deal with something like this with little or no explanation. I do not need to find another line of work, and that was pretty darn rude if you ask me, the whole point of this forum is to get advice, not smart a*s remarks from others. I am following the code, which leaves too much room for interpretation, which is why I decided to ask all of you to explain that to me in "LAMEN's" terms, because I do know how to read the Code Book, I was just looking for more insight and clarification.
stevearne
Senior Member
- Location
- Rapid City, SD
Re: wiring in crawl space
Yes everyone- let's play nice. I think we all can agree that there are things in the NEC that each one of us could say "I just don't get this" and this should be a safe place to come to and ask those questions without ridicule. The electrical field is so broad and so complex anymore, that no one can tell you they understand it all.
About the crawl space- have you ever been into a crawl space, not matter how deep, and seen that the plumbing pipes, or the duct work was run parallel to the joists but not secured, and has sagged until the 12-2 romex that crosses the bottoms of the joist is all that is holding it up? Maybe a running board would be a good idea.
Have you ever had to crawl through a tight crawl space and find that the material or tools or pipe or duct work that you are trying to take in with you snagged on low hanging romex that was stapled perpendicular to the joists and was not held up? Maybe a running board would be a good idea.
Have you ever gone into a crawl space or unfinished basement to find that the owner's storage included many items stuck in between the joists and held up only by the romex, which is beginning to sag and pull loose? Maybe a running bord would be a good idea.
I hope these thoughts will give you some insight into why the code requires running boards when running perpendicular to the joists. I am sure there as some people out there who have had similar observations.
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334.15(C) [2005 NEC]is specifically unfinished basements - but 334.15(A) can be applied to any exposed work. Crawl spaces may be somewhat of a judgment call, and remember that 90.4 allows the AHJ the last word on that. So what are the inspectors requiring?
This may be an issue that could be clarified by a code change proposal to specifically address crawl spaces.
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By the way, this is not really an electrical instructor topic, so I will move it to a NEC forum area soon. Please feel free to continue the discussion there.
[ October 10, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: stevearne ]
Yes everyone- let's play nice. I think we all can agree that there are things in the NEC that each one of us could say "I just don't get this" and this should be a safe place to come to and ask those questions without ridicule. The electrical field is so broad and so complex anymore, that no one can tell you they understand it all.
About the crawl space- have you ever been into a crawl space, not matter how deep, and seen that the plumbing pipes, or the duct work was run parallel to the joists but not secured, and has sagged until the 12-2 romex that crosses the bottoms of the joist is all that is holding it up? Maybe a running board would be a good idea.
Have you ever had to crawl through a tight crawl space and find that the material or tools or pipe or duct work that you are trying to take in with you snagged on low hanging romex that was stapled perpendicular to the joists and was not held up? Maybe a running board would be a good idea.
Have you ever gone into a crawl space or unfinished basement to find that the owner's storage included many items stuck in between the joists and held up only by the romex, which is beginning to sag and pull loose? Maybe a running bord would be a good idea.
I hope these thoughts will give you some insight into why the code requires running boards when running perpendicular to the joists. I am sure there as some people out there who have had similar observations.
---------------------------------
334.15(C) [2005 NEC]is specifically unfinished basements - but 334.15(A) can be applied to any exposed work. Crawl spaces may be somewhat of a judgment call, and remember that 90.4 allows the AHJ the last word on that. So what are the inspectors requiring?
This may be an issue that could be clarified by a code change proposal to specifically address crawl spaces.
---------------------------
By the way, this is not really an electrical instructor topic, so I will move it to a NEC forum area soon. Please feel free to continue the discussion there.
[ October 10, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: stevearne ]
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: wiring in crawl space
Ok, my "find another line of work" was uncalled for, so I apologize.
IMO, the code language is clear. Running boards are still required in a crawl space. You can't say that wiring in a crawl space is not subject to damage. Yes, the possibility of damage is remote but still there, because crawl spaces can vary from a few feet deep to almost standing height. Therefore, the code rule needs to be strict to cover the possibility that NM cable can still be subject to damage in a crawlspace.
Ok, my "find another line of work" was uncalled for, so I apologize.
IMO, the code language is clear. Running boards are still required in a crawl space. You can't say that wiring in a crawl space is not subject to damage. Yes, the possibility of damage is remote but still there, because crawl spaces can vary from a few feet deep to almost standing height. Therefore, the code rule needs to be strict to cover the possibility that NM cable can still be subject to damage in a crawlspace.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: wiring in crawl space
Pope, welcome to the forum.
Click here to see the turmoil I went through in my denial phase, before bargaining and acceptance.
Steve has a good post on this. More examples can be provided if you'd like. Is there a different angle that you would like to share with us on this?
Pope, welcome to the forum.
You're telling me! This section (or more specifcally "(C)" is a real revelation when it appears, ey?
Click here to see the turmoil I went through in my denial phase, before bargaining and acceptance.
Yep!
Well, that's not always assured.
Steve has a good post on this. More examples can be provided if you'd like. Is there a different angle that you would like to share with us on this?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: wiring in crawl space
I would say damage is as likely in a crawl, as the confinement results in a higher chance of contact with the cables.
I would say damage is as likely in a crawl, as the confinement results in a higher chance of contact with the cables.
Re: wiring in crawl space
Exposed work as covered in 334.15 would be defined as ?on or attached to the surface?, as opposed to ?concealed? Art. 100. See also 334.10(A)(1) etc.. Exposed wiring methods can be used in a finished area as on a finished basement wall where NM cable is run in EMT to an outlet.
To ?follow the surface? as opposed to suspended through the air, would follow regardless of finish. Notice that this is juxtaposed with ?running boards? which are installed for protection and are not generally considered as part of the structure.
The rule that what is not prohibited is generally allowed, I believe comes into play here. The distinction between ?crawl space? and ?unfinished Basement? in 210.8 is not addressing wiring methods but does illustrate this point. The 2005 code does limit the use of wiring attached to the bottoms of joists in unfinished basements 314.15(C) but does not apply this limitation to crawl spaces, even though this would probably be prudent. I see no requirement for paralleling crawl space wiring with floor joists.
Exposed work as covered in 334.15 would be defined as ?on or attached to the surface?, as opposed to ?concealed? Art. 100. See also 334.10(A)(1) etc.. Exposed wiring methods can be used in a finished area as on a finished basement wall where NM cable is run in EMT to an outlet.
To ?follow the surface? as opposed to suspended through the air, would follow regardless of finish. Notice that this is juxtaposed with ?running boards? which are installed for protection and are not generally considered as part of the structure.
The rule that what is not prohibited is generally allowed, I believe comes into play here. The distinction between ?crawl space? and ?unfinished Basement? in 210.8 is not addressing wiring methods but does illustrate this point. The 2005 code does limit the use of wiring attached to the bottoms of joists in unfinished basements 314.15(C) but does not apply this limitation to crawl spaces, even though this would probably be prudent. I see no requirement for paralleling crawl space wiring with floor joists.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: wiring in crawl space
The only reason we can do that with larger cables in basements is because of 334.15(C).
Correct and running NM exposed without following closely following the building finish is prohibited.
The only reason we can do that with larger cables in basements is because of 334.15(C).
Re: wiring in crawl space
"Running NM exposed without following closely following the building finish is prohibited."
"There is no requirement for 'paralleling crawl space wiring with floor joists' but there is a requirement to follow the building finish or to use running boards."
I would have to respectfully disagree with you. 334.15(A)requires y0u to follow the building finish - if you have exposed wiring in an area where surface is finished. It requires you to closely follow running boards - when they are required.
That this is true can be readily seen from the following, to name but a few:
1. Definition of exposed work in art. 100
2. 314.15(B)names several applications where neither is present.
3. 334.15(C) also lists bored holes.
4. 334.23 in referring to accessable attics, which in many ways parallels a crawl space application, takes you to 320.23 which seems clear that the running boards or guard strips are required for wiring protection only near point of enterance or in areas where they might inadvertantly be walked on.
5. Another area that has neither would be the unfinished garage.
"Running NM exposed without following closely following the building finish is prohibited."
"There is no requirement for 'paralleling crawl space wiring with floor joists' but there is a requirement to follow the building finish or to use running boards."
I would have to respectfully disagree with you. 334.15(A)requires y0u to follow the building finish - if you have exposed wiring in an area where surface is finished. It requires you to closely follow running boards - when they are required.
That this is true can be readily seen from the following, to name but a few:
1. Definition of exposed work in art. 100
2. 314.15(B)names several applications where neither is present.
3. 334.15(C) also lists bored holes.
4. 334.23 in referring to accessable attics, which in many ways parallels a crawl space application, takes you to 320.23 which seems clear that the running boards or guard strips are required for wiring protection only near point of enterance or in areas where they might inadvertantly be walked on.
5. Another area that has neither would be the unfinished garage.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: wiring in crawl space
wes no problem disagreeing here, we all disagree with each other at some point.
I am sorry I am not following your reasoning at all.
Exposed is exposed, if the NM is exposed it can not fly through the air, it must follow the building finish.
In a crawl space the joists are the finish.
wes no problem disagreeing here, we all disagree with each other at some point.
I am sorry I am not following your reasoning at all.
Exposed is exposed, if the NM is exposed it can not fly through the air, it must follow the building finish.
In a crawl space the joists are the finish.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: wiring in crawl space
Disclaimer: I'm back on the '02 again, the '05's in the truck.
Wes, welcome!
(A) takes all your options away.
(C) gives some of them back.
The statement in (C) is not a limitation, it is a permission given back to violate the rule that (A) laid down.
Disclaimer: I'm back on the '02 again, the '05's in the truck.
Wes, welcome!
This statement, particularly the bolded phrase above, slams the door on the 'permissive document' doctrine in one sentence. Now the general rule is out the window, and all NM must comply with the installation guidelines given if the installation can be called "exposed work."
I agree, an unfinished basement isn't a crawlspace per the NEC. What the difference is, is conveniently omitted.
This is where your train of thought jumps the track, Wes. Look at it this way:
(A) takes all your options away.
(C) gives some of them back.
The statement in (C) is not a limitation, it is a permission given back to violate the rule that (A) laid down.
stevearne
Senior Member
- Location
- Rapid City, SD
Re: wiring in crawl space
Good discussion, I am going to close it off in the Electrical Instructor area as this is not an instructor issue and move to the NEC discussion area. Please feel free to continue your discussion there.
Good discussion, I am going to close it off in the Electrical Instructor area as this is not an instructor issue and move to the NEC discussion area. Please feel free to continue your discussion there.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: wiring in crawl space
I have never had an inspector have an issue with NM stapled to the bottom of joists in crawl spaces, regardless of the direction, as long as we adhere to the 54" intervals.
I have never had an inspector have an issue with NM stapled to the bottom of joists in crawl spaces, regardless of the direction, as long as we adhere to the 54" intervals.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: wiring in crawl space
We can't assume just because an inspector approves a method that it's right. Inspectors are only human too and make mistakes.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: wiring in crawl space
I have, way back in the seventy's. And ever since he made me tear it all out and do it right, I have never done it since across the bottom of joists in a crawl space unless it was large SE cables.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: wiring in crawl space
Moderator's Note: I have moved this comment from another thread, at the request of the person who inadvertencly posted it there.
Moderator's Note: I have moved this comment from another thread, at the request of the person who inadvertencly posted it there.
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Originally posted by pope:
what is the definition for a "BUILDING FINISH"?
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Tell us what you think it means.
IMHO a crawl space does not constitute a basement.Granted there as far as I know a designated height in which it transformed from a crawl space to a basement.I always though if ya gotta crawl through bugs ,dust, beer cans and broken glass then
Re: wiring in crawl space
If you disallow the "understood" meaning of "where applicable" to be added to this sentence, (as allowed by the rules of English grammer), we will be left with the use of the use of running boards for all exposed wiring that does not specifically allow other methods of cable protection and support.
What than do we do with the unfinished areas such as residential garages etc.? Can we no longer run NM in bored holes in their walls? Let's go with running boards on all of them. Why not?
Seems to me that you are developing an oxymoron here! The very definition of an unfinished area declares it has no finish. The code only refers to what the building finish is a few times, and in every case it is the covering that would render any wiring in that part of the building structure "concealed". Therefore for an "exposed" wiring method to "closely follow the surface of the building finish" would have to refer to an exposed wiring method used in a "finished" area.Originally posted by iwire:
In a crawl space the joists are the finish.
If you disallow the "understood" meaning of "where applicable" to be added to this sentence, (as allowed by the rules of English grammer), we will be left with the use of the use of running boards for all exposed wiring that does not specifically allow other methods of cable protection and support.
What than do we do with the unfinished areas such as residential garages etc.? Can we no longer run NM in bored holes in their walls? Let's go with running boards on all of them. Why not?
Re: wiring in crawl space
In Michigan, we have to comply with the Michigan Residential Code. There is no distinction between crawl spaces and basements. By definition in the MRC, a basement is "That part of a building that is partly or completely below grade". The section of the MRC dealing with NM cable in unfinished basements is the same as in 334.15 (C) in the NEC. So the rule applies to crawl spaces as well as to basements.
Actually, I guess, according to the MRC we have no crawl spaces in Michigan.
In unfinished garages around here the cables may not run horizontally through stud bays.
[ October 12, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
In Michigan, we have to comply with the Michigan Residential Code. There is no distinction between crawl spaces and basements. By definition in the MRC, a basement is "That part of a building that is partly or completely below grade". The section of the MRC dealing with NM cable in unfinished basements is the same as in 334.15 (C) in the NEC. So the rule applies to crawl spaces as well as to basements.
Actually, I guess, according to the MRC we have no crawl spaces in Michigan.
In unfinished garages around here the cables may not run horizontally through stud bays.
[ October 12, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
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