Work on energized equipment without PPE

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I'll install a breaker into an energized panel (snap in only). I used to install bolt in breakers in energized panels but now figure it's not worth the risk (although as many as I've done in the past I wonder how much risk there is, maybe I'm just lucky?).
 
I have been struggling with exactly how (procedurally) to go about de-energizing a resi panel to be in full compliance with OSHA requirements. Do I call for a lineman to come each time I need to snap in a breaker so that he can pull the meter and put in a glass? Do I cut the seal, pull the meter with PPE, and install a glass myself, and call for a reseal? They'll require a re-inspection of the service equipment in that case, before they'll reseal, when I was doing simple work that would have otherwise not required an inspection. I know that there is a BS, PC type answer to this problem, and it is the procedure I just described. In reality, we're put in a position to have to work in a somewhat hot (main breaker lugs) at a minimum. Add in the fact that my market area is covered by 5 different serving utilities, that makes the procedure different for each, no doubt.
 
I have been struggling with exactly how (procedurally) to go about de-energizing a resi panel to be in full compliance with OSHA requirements
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We need a code change in the NEC to make this easier. Under the Canadian Code, there is an additional metal barrier over the line side terminations for service panels...when you lockout the main, you can safely work on the load side bus. I wonder why the panel makers have not submitted this proposal? They already make panels in compliance with the CEC and it would add a bit to the price of a panel.
Don
 
It would help if we had a requirement to match one in the Canadian Electrical code.

A typical residential panel will have a line side shield that stays in place when you remove the outer cover.

Only the supply conductors can occupy this area, the branch circuits must enter into the enclosure in other areas.

I saw a picture of a Canadian Square D panel, the shield looked like an easily added option to a standard panel.
 
If it's designed to be adjusted, or worked, while energized, and proper PPE is available, use it! Our industry has a certain element of risk, when the industry got legs a 100 years ago, 1 out 4 electricians died. We maybe a little over protected at times, but better too safe than too sorry. If it's "to be done live" for your convienence, I'm not ready to for a potential untimely demise so you can do whatever it is you think is important at the moment. What I can do is schedule alternate time, or days that will mesh best for all concerned, that way we can all be happy.

In regard to meter installation, where I'm at currently, the utilty is in control of the issue, and all commercial has a meter by-pass. In other area's I don't mind pulling and reinserting meter, it will be in a no load status though( main off).
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
We need a code change in the NEC to make this easier. Under the Canadian Code, there is an additional metal barrier over the line side terminations for service panels...when you lockout the main, you can safely work on the load side bus. I wonder why the panel makers have not submitted this proposal? They already make panels in compliance with the CEC and it would add a bit to the price of a panel.
Don
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Yeah, I am aware that you can order the CEC compliant 'finger safe kit' for QO panels. That is an option that I have looked into, as I have the Canadian part numbers for those kits. That could not be installed in hot panels, however. It is intended to be installed at the time of panel installation. If I had to completely de-energize every panel I worked in, I'd go from an average of 4.7 service calls per electrician day to one or two. That would be an economic disaster. A dead electrician is a disaster also. Nearly as disasterous is an unemployed batch of electricians who's employer could not economically comply with the OSHA requirement.
 
Rockyd said:
If it's "to be done live" for your convienence, I'm not ready to for a potential untimely demise so you can do whatever it is you think is important at the moment. What I can do is schedule alternate time, or days that will mesh best for all concerned, that way we can all be happy.
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Yeah, that's the BS, politically correct answer that is often stated. In practice, that would put you out of business. At least it would me, as I am service mostly. I am looking for an economically feasible way to be in compliance. It does not seem to exist at the moment.
 
mdshunk said:
Yeah, that's the BS, politically correct answer that is often stated. In practice, that would put you out of business. At least it would me, as I am service mostly. I am looking for an economically feasible way to be in compliance. It does not seem to exist at the moment.
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Proper training and PPE

also

Equal enforcement throughout the industry


Both will take some more time to institute, but are definitely coming to town soon...
 
Marc described a very real problem that neither training or PPE can solve.

OSHA rules prohibit Marc from installing the breaker with or without PPE.

You can only work hot with PPE for very few reasons, installing a branch breaker in a residential panel is not IMO one of them.

I don't see how electricians in Marc's situation can comply and stay working.

It's a bad situation.
 
Marc,
Yeah, I am aware that you can order the CEC compliant 'finger safe kit' for QO panels. That is an option that I have looked into, as I have the Canadian part numbers for those kits. That could not be installed in hot panels, however. It is intended to be installed at the time of panel installation.
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That is correct, and is the reason we need a code change to require this device in all new panels, but that is no help for the large number of existing installations.
Don
 
Pierre,
Proper training and PPE
also
Equal enforcement throughout the industry
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How does that solve the time and cost issue of getting the utility to kill the line side power to install a new breaker? PPE or not there is no OSHA complaint way to work on an energized residential panel.
Don
 
Pierre is right. NFPA 70E is the consensus being used by OSHA. PPE and training are required. We're so used to making things convenient for ourselves and our customers at expense of safety. I know because I work stuff live almost every day when I shouldn't. Work on equipment will have to scheduled for shutdowns on off hours. NFPA 70 E is not just coming, it is here.
 
There was some interesting language in the 2002 code cycle in Article 80. It was shifted to the annex section in 2005 NEC. Anyone know what the 2008 is going to do with aforemention language?

OSHA only makes a law after someone is injured or killed, so either we let them make the rules, or we have to brainstorm up a solution, just an observation.
 
I do it on a daily basis. Seen a fireball almost everyday since ive started this profession. Thats not to say im wreckless, You have to be very cautious in the particular industry im in, but everybody has got to eat. LOTO when you can but 90% of my work is LIVE. Good Luck and GOD Bless KEG
 
kspifldorf said:
Seen a fireball almost everyday since ive started this profession.
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You're kidding, right? I hope so, in any event. I've seen (and created) my share; none of which I am particularly proud of.
 
No kidding theres lots of water and under paid sanitation workers that just dont know or care in my industry and i have to clean the mess during or after these worlds collide just part of the job i guess.
 
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kspifldorf, it is your employers responsibility to provide a safe environment for you. Sounds like your situation should be a prime concern for Osha and for yourself.
 
Yes of course they do but its truly impossible to guide some people. In my case It makes me more cautious and aware of my surroundings. but to quote the Warden "Theres some people you cant teach" I could go on all day....
 
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