Work on energized equipment without PPE

Status
Not open for further replies.
I work in an industrial facility where we are under production 24/7. We have the PPE and I use it. Period. I do have to install breakers while the panels are hot and it is not a matter of convenience. If at anytime that I feel that it is an unsafe situation or if anything in my opinion looks dangerous, I'll pull the project and reschedule a shutdown for a couple of minutes. I have told them would you rather lose a couple of minutes of production due to a safety issue or miss work to go to one of your fellow employee's funeral. Which one of you wants to be that employee? They kind of shut up after that.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Proper training and PPE

also

Equal enforcement throughout the industry


Both will take some more time to institute, but are definitely coming to town soon...
Click to expand...

Pierre, As it appears it will also take some time to enforce proper inspections and enforcement of unlicensed contractors especially in your district. I only speak from first hand experience. Nothing against inspectors here but I am still yet to personally meet one who meets their job requirements to the fullest.

I'm sure only Pierre will understand this message.
Just stirring the pot.
I hope Pierre learned how to use his phone by now.
Steve
 
Last edited:
memyselfandI
We have the PPE and I use it. Period. I do have to install breakers while the panels are hot and it is not a matter of convenience.
Click to expand...
Unless shutting the power off will increase the danger, then it is a matter of convenience and is a citable violation of the OSHA rules. It doesn't matter if you have the correct PPE and think that you can safely work it while energized...you can only do that for trouble shooting and the rare cases where shutting down the power results in an increased hazard. Note, I too work in an industrial plant where down time is often thousands of dollars a minute and other than troubleshooting, there is no energized work done.
Don
 
Why be a hero in your own mind?

A OSHA compliant Energized Work Permit is the tool used to obtain a shutdown. When my butt on the line, the work will be done de-energized. The supervisor that signs the EWP can't be the brightest guy on the street.

Why in the world would one go into battle without their bullet-proof vest, helmet and rifle. Sandels and rocks won't win the war.

You need it, get it, use it.
 
These OSHA rules are great, but when was the last time you saw someone from OSHA on a job site? If electrician A won't install a breaker in a live panel then old salty dog electrician B will. Until the mind set of a lot of electricians changes and someone is there to enforce the rules, everyday thousands of electricians will be working on energized equipment.

I remember decades ago when I started in this trade, an old grizzled electrician showed me how to test 120 volt fuses with his fingers. He said that if you had the right amount of callus and didn't press too hard you could feel a slight tingle if the fuse were good. So if electrician A won't work on energized equipment and old grizzled electrician B will, guess would will be the first guy to be unemployed. It may not be right but it is real.
 
infinity said:
These OSHA rules are great, but when was the last time you saw someone from OSHA on a job site? If electrician A won't install a breaker in a live panel then old salty dog electrician B will. Until the mind set of a lot of electricians changes and someone is there to enforce the rules, everyday thousands of electricians will be working on energized equipment.

I remember decades ago when I started in this trade, an old grizzled electrician showed me how to test 120 volt fuses with his fingers. He said that if you had the right amount of callus and didn't press too hard you could feel a slight tingle if the fuse were good. So if electrician A won't work on energized equipment and old grizzled electrician B will, guess would will be the first guy to be unemployed. It may not be right but it is real.
Click to expand...

The guy that broke me in back in the day also tested with his fingers.It took awhile but I got the hang of it.Don`t do it anymore, but i do know a guy that only tests with his fingers.Has no problem walking up to a single phase service placing his fingers on the lugs and saying Yup thats 240 alright.If I didn`t see it myself I wouldn`t have believed it.
 
I had been told that somewhere in early electrical books that the finger touch method was a recommended test for voltage ...

I would refuse to be anywhere near someone with such disregard for rules, and commom sense.


Do any of you folks have knowledge of a supervisor of an injured employee being held responsible, convicted and/or even jailed?
 
Never heard of a jail sentance. Heard of fines, though.

The cynical side of me will answer that the supervisor will ensure that a piece of paper will be found, or a conversation will be had, or a policy will be in place, such that the supervisor can claim that proper instruction was given regarding safety.

Be your own advocate for your personal safety.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
You know, the speed limit on many roads is 55 MPH. Anyone in here ever do 60 on that road?
Click to expand...

This is an interesting analogy to think about, hardworkingstiff.

Sad thing is that people will slow down, not because going faster increases the risks, but because they want to save their gas money. They see the money flow out of the wallet every day. They may never see an accident happen on a highway. The 'speed kills' phrase gets applied to the pocket book, not to the driver's personal safety.
 
Natfuelbilll said:
I'll often work energized when inserting or removing a cord cap into a receptacle - that's it.

How about you?
Click to expand...

Above is the first post in the thread. Below I am simply repeating my sentiments from previous posts on similar topics:

My feeling from outside the 'inside wireman' industry (remember, I am an electric motor researcher, I don't deal with this stuff day after day. As far as electrical installations are concerned, I am a well informed customer) is that the problem needs to be attacked from multiple directions.

In addition to pushing against 'working hot' simply to increase profit, and in addition to pushing to have proper PPE when 'working hot' is actually necessary, there needs to be a push at the initial design and installation stage for equipment where internal guarding and protection is such that 'working hot' is no more dangerous than plugging a cord cap into a receptacle.

If a process is so gosh darned valuable that it cannot be shut down, then it should be supplied with redundant switchgear, so that you can shut down portions of the electrical system for maintenance, without shutting down the process. Working on the electrical system of a process that is not shut down does not have to mean working exposed to shock or arc hazard.

IMHO it _should_ be possible to add a breaker to an energized panel without significant exposure to shock or arc. This would require a panel where the feed is behind suitable protection, where the breaker terminals are guarded against finger contact and contact with exposed wires, where the bus is similarly guarded, and I am certain other design features. But IMHO a panel could be designed where the risk of installing a new breaker was similar to the risk of inserting a cord cap.

Such an 'internally person safe' panel would of course be more expensive. But if the justification for 'working hot' is the cost of a shutdown, then the real number for a fair comparison is not 'how much would it cost to shut this system down', but 'how much would it cost to provide a system that could be worked hot in reasonable safety.'

There will always be some risks (disconnecting the neutral on an energized circuit, for example), and some level of PPE and procedure will be necessary. But there is some risk in simply using electricity. Throwing a switch or plugging a device into a receptacle is not considered 'working hot', but there is real risk in doing so.

'Convenience' has very real value, and at some level the risk to life is low enough that convenience _should_ win out, some level of risk where the cost savings by taking the risk is worth it. The goal is to make the risk so low that even a reasonable person would say 'this is a fair trade' when it is their life on the line, and to make sure that there isn't a 'fight to the bottom' where you take excessive risks because if you don't, then 'somebody else will'.

Would you take a risk that has a 1:1000 chance of killing you to save your company $1000 in downtime? I should hope not.

How about if the risk was 1:1000000? This is a risk level similar to that of driving to work. I would perform a task that has a historic/statistical risk of 1:1000000 if it put $500 in my pocket at the end of the day.

-Jon
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
memyselfandI

Unless shutting the power off will increase the danger, then it is a matter of convenience and is a citable violation of the OSHA rules.

infinity These OSHA rules are great, but when was the last time you saw someone from OSHA on a job site? If electrician A won't install a breaker in a live panel then old salty dog electrician B will.

I agree with both of you, and IMO it is NOT a matter of convenience. And I can say this that there is not one of you that hasn't installed a breaker while the panel was energized. You do it or have done it because it had to be done at that time, not out of convenience, but out of neccessity. I would much rather have the power down on a panel than to work in it hot. Murphy's law is always there and we do our best to keep from getting killed, but it is up to the individual to have enough intelligence to implement 70E as well as OSHA reg's. OSHA only enforces either after a death or a complaint has been filed. Once in a while you get them showing up at job sites because they were just "passing by"....with a camera, but you almost never see them on job sites.
Click to expand...
 
memyselfandI,
I agree with both of you, and IMO it is NOT a matter of convenience.
Click to expand...
How is it not? If turning it off does not create a greater hazard then working hot is for convenience(other than troubleshooting).
And I can say this that there is not one of you that hasn't installed a breaker while the panel was energized. You do it or have done it because it had to be done at that time, not out of convenience, but out of neccessity.
Click to expand...
I have done it in the past out if ignorance, because that what I was taught. At my current job, if I tried to do that, I and the contractor that I work for would be banned from ever working at that site again. Also the same ban is applied to the person for any lockout/tagout violations.
Once in a while you get them showing up at job sites because they were just "passing by"....with a camera, but you almost never see them on job sites.
Click to expand...
The site that I work at is an OSHA "VPP Star" site and OSHA is invited in at least once every 3 years for an audit...2 or 3 OSHA people spend 3 or 4 days reviewing the site and its safety practices.
Don
 
memyselfandI said:
You do it or have done it because it had to be done at that time, not out of convenience, but out of neccessity. I would much rather have the power down on a panel than to work in it hot.
Click to expand...

Here is the actual OSHA Standard word for word.

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.


Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.


Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.


Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section
Click to expand...



Nothing will change until we change.

I said no just last Thursday when a customers in house electrician wanted me to install a GE TED bolt on 3-pole breaker in a 600 amp 480 volt live panel.

My life, my health, was much more important to me than this facilities down time.
 
What's the difference.

A lineman opens the can and removes/reinstalls a meter hot while wearing hot-gloves.

An electrician opens a panel and removes/installs a breaker while wearing PPE.


The only difference is lineman/electrician and meter/breaker. It's hot-work either way. Most times the lineman around here use hot gloves at most. Sometimes bare hands. I have NEVER seen one with any arc-flash protection.

OSHA makes no sense.

Mark
 
Like I said it is up to the individual to know when and how to implement safety procedures. You can have a million rules, you can quote all the regs you want to, but if one chooses not to follow them then they are useless. More rules and more regulations are not going to change anything. We are always looking for someone or something to tell us what to do, to guide us or to hold our hands. We as individuals need to take responsibility for our own actions, and with proper training and education, we could just about elliminate all the unneccessary deaths caused by being careless. It has to be industry wide to work. From the manufacturer, to the contractor, right down through to the customer. All levels need to be well informed of the dangers that can arise and be infromed as to the procedures in making it safe to work, but until this happens you will always get that one electrician who will go around the regs and do it with no regards to safety. Unfortunately in our occupation sometimes people die or become seriously injured, even when you dot your I's and cross your T's. But with these regs we have drastically reduced the the number of casualties and I hope that one day we can eliminate all of them.
 
busman said:
.... I have NEVER seen one with any arc-flash protection.

OSHA makes no sense.

Mark
Click to expand...


Do these linemen, (meter installers?), even have PPE in their trucks?

One would think that the utilities would be leading by example.

Does the NFPA 70E have a sister document in NESC?

I would believe that the same OSHA rules would apply to the utility.
 
mdshunk said:
I have been struggling with exactly how (procedurally) to go about de-energizing a resi panel to be in full compliance with OSHA requirements. Do I call for a lineman to come each time I need to snap in a breaker so that he can pull the meter and put in a glass? Do I cut the seal, pull the meter with PPE, and install a glass myself, and call for a reseal? They'll require a re-inspection of the service equipment in that case, before they'll reseal, when I was doing simple work that would have otherwise not required an inspection. I know that there is a BS, PC type answer to this problem, and it is the procedure I just described. In reality, we're put in a position to have to work in a somewhat hot (main breaker lugs) at a minimum. Add in the fact that my market area is covered by 5 different serving utilities, that makes the procedure different for each, no doubt.
Click to expand...

No doubt each individual poco might require a reinspect prior to a reseal.I have not encountered this.On a standard 120 V single phase residential.I have for years done my work live.But this is after the OCPD for the service.When I have to work on the customers side of the service I cut the seal, remove the meter and call the poco to reseal.Anything on the poco`s side I leave to them.
To install a breaker or work within the panel I take safety precautions as needed.But I am one of those old grizzly electricians that learned by the seat of my pants.After 30 + years this practice has not proved me wrong.Is it OSHA compliant, No.Is it what I do, yes.Am I going to change because I have read it is not OSHA compliant well no.
Now if anyone bucked and said hey I won`t do this because it is not OSHA compliant.Well they are within there rights to say that.I hold no animosity towards them.Now when you get into 277/480 systems the rules change as far as I am concerned.But in a standard 120/240 system I have my own way I think.
But this is just the way I do things and I am not advocating working live.
 
What is PPE?

No, I know what that is. I know it is deemed unsafe but I work on alot of stuff energized. Is it dangerous? Yes, if you do not pay attention it is. I know where my limits are. I can honestly say I have never even gotten close to being injured while working on live equipment. From voltages of 24 to 600 volts. I usually wear a good CLEAN pair of leather gloves and as long as they are dry, clean and do not have any matter such as oil, carbon, etc. I feel safe when working energized equipment.
I always hear people say, " if they have a pin hole in them, electricity will jump to the pinhole !". I say what is the difference between the pinhole in the back of the finger and the hole you put your hand in? If you touch the wire through the pinhole, sure it is gonna shock you. But you are touching the wire is why.
I have worked 12470 volts with the high voltage gloves, but then I knew the dangers and was very aware of it. I think the key to not getting injured is pay attention to your environment, know your limitations. If you think it may be too dangerous, then it probably is, turn it off !!, then work on it. Be safe !!
 
I would believe that the same OSHA rules would apply to the utility.
Click to expand...
Actually OSHA has a different set of rules for utility workers. In my area they were wear FR clothing long before any electrician was. One of the big differences for line work is that there is no metal enclosure around the equipment to direct the arc flash back at the worker...the arc flash energy is free to radiate in all directions and this helps to limit the energy at the worker.
Don
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top