Wrapping THHN around screws is certainly not quality

[Mustwin351]

Is it just me or is that receptacle completely missing a device box on the wall?

 

[Ultrafault]

Zoom in on that box. It's completly behind the drywall and at a 30 degree angle. I would hate to see what everything else looks like if they screwed up mounting a simple box. Ok top5, I see what your getting at, however, your only going to weaken your argument if you try to go after him for using listed installation techniques. I have to go throw up after seeing how that box was mounted.

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[growler]

However I am having a small issue with someone in a building I am responsible for after they do their contract.

I do not believe that the out of state guys he has even have Michigan licensing.

How are you responsible for this building when someone else has the electrical contract?

Whoever permitted the job is responsible for the work performed, looks like more than just electrical work so there must be a GC involved with the EC as a sub.

Most states do require some sort of warranty on new construction type work.

Who drew up the plans and specs for this job. They could have put any sort of requirements they wished in the job specs.

Are you hired by the owners to oversee this job in any way?

 

[growler]

I used to do work for one of the Motel chains. At one of their locations, they need lots of fixtures and switches changed out. The maintenance supervisor wanted me to at least get a chance to bid the work because he trusted the quality of my work. The manager of the motel decided that her cousin and his crew of goons was the better deal ( I suspect a little kickback) and they were awarded or hired for the job.

The work was really sloppy and sub-standard and caused problems for years. The manager was eventually fired, the maintenance supervisor found another job and I got lots and lots of service calls.

There can be a silver lining behind a really dark cloud.

 

[kwired]

Where does it say in the code to leave a few strands to stray in free air outside the terminal?
Do your friends also do this or this?

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I have no clue what your problem is with the first photo. Boxes maybe not all the same height? That is not an NEC issue.

Second photo - the short tail of conductor at each terminal is very likely the result of stripping the conductor further back from the end but only enough to make termination and leaving excess insulation past the end of the conductor. IMO this was a wise thing to do vs stripping just the last 3/4 inch of insulation off the conductor if you are going to terminate stranded conductor under the screw terminals. It prevents the end of the conductor from splaying out when you tighten the screw terminal. The end of the conductor is 3/4 to an inch back inside the insulation and it is not going to short out on the box or anything else.

 

[hbiss]

I terminate stranded wire all the time just like the picture. I don't see any strands sticking out and I don't see a problem.

As much as I avoid stranded wire, when I have to I do it that way too. EXCEPT I use that short tail to twist the stripped strands tightly then wrap and tighten the screw. Then I cut the tail off with my cutters as far from the screw as possible but not extending past the live parts on side of the device.

I also agree that when pigtailing, use solid for the pigtail.

-Hal

 

[MichiganTop5]

How are you responsible for this building when someone else has the electrical contract?

Whoever permitted the job is responsible for the work performed, looks like more than just electrical work so there must be a GC involved with the EC as a sub.

Most states do require some sort of warranty on new construction type work.

Who drew up the plans and specs for this job. They could have put any sort of requirements they wished in the job specs.

Are you hired by the owners to oversee this job in any way?

Yes I'm hired to oversee this job by the owner. There's no prints and I am the warranty LMAO another reason I'm gonna straighten this all out

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[MichiganTop5]

I have no clue what your problem is with the first photo. Boxes maybe not all the same height? That is not an NEC issue.

Second photo - the short tail of conductor at each terminal is very likely the result of stripping the conductor further back from the end but only enough to make termination and leaving excess insulation past the end of the conductor. IMO this was a wise thing to do vs stripping just the last 3/4 inch of insulation off the conductor if you are going to terminate stranded conductor under the screw terminals. It prevents the end of the conductor from splaying out when you tighten the screw terminal. The end of the conductor is 3/4 to an inch back inside the insulation and it is not going to short out on the box or anything else.

Look closely the box is dangling at a 45° and there is a air gap between box and drywall. And yes what the hell no tape measure or level or chalk line? This is repair and they were straight and level before you touch them they should be level when you done. Not a code issue on the level just a hack issue

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[kwired]

Yes I'm hired to oversee this job by the owner. There's no prints and I am the warranty LMAO another reason I'm gonna straighten this all out

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If there are no prints or other specifications then all the installer needs to do is pass inspection for the most part.

If you had specifications in writing and he accepted them then you have something to use against him, if anything withholding final payment until everything complies with specifications.

 

[MichiganTop5]

As much as I avoid stranded wire, when I have to I do it that way too. EXCEPT I use that short tail to twist the stripped strands tightly then wrap and tighten the screw. Then I cut the tail off with my cutters as far from the screw as possible but not extending past the live parts on side of the device.

I also agree that when pigtailing, use solid for the pigtail.

-Hal

Agreed finally someone else who sees the point. So it would appear that this is a gray area issue and difficult to challenge especially when it's a cheap dollar driven low quality ec

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[Little Bill]

Yes I'm hired to oversee this job by the owner. There's no prints and I am the warranty LMAO another reason I'm gonna straighten this all out

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I understand your frustration with some of the work. However you didn't start out by telling us all the facts. You wanted us to tell you that using stranded wire around a screw was a code violation and also not a listed method.
we were just pointing out that it's fine/legal/listed to terminate stranded wire this way.

My reasons would be workman like manner and that it's not a listed installation for that device yoke? Any more blatant codes? Or proof of this as a poor method?

 

[kwired]

Agreed finally someone else who sees the point. So it would appear that this is a gray area issue and difficult to challenge especially when it's a cheap dollar driven low quality ec

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It is a gray issue area regardless of how low quality the EC may be.

Appears you don't like him for some reason, yet haven't given us anything to definitely say he is totally incompetent.

 

[MichiganTop5]

How are you responsible for this building when someone else has the electrical contract?

Whoever permitted the job is responsible for the work performed, looks like more than just electrical work so there must be a GC involved with the EC as a sub.

Most states do require some sort of warranty on new construction type work.

Who drew up the plans and specs for this job. They could have put any sort of requirements they wished in the job specs.

Are you hired by the owners to oversee this job in any way?

I am the lead electrician and this is a large insurance claim. The GC has its own EC and not to mention I am already overloaded with work. I maintain and repair all the electrical in the entire facility

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[Ultrafault]

You said you have no prints. Do you have specs? Do you have a contract? If you dont have any prior documentation you have established that you don't know what you are doing. Expect the contractor to follow your example.

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[MichiganTop5]

It is a gray issue area regardless of how low quality the EC may be.

Appears you don't like him for some reason, yet haven't given us anything to definitely say he is totally incompetent.

Out of state down south guy is his only experienced guy. Which in my experience never have I met or seen southern electricians with much quality. PM does no physical work and doesn't appear to train or have skills of his own. Then all the work is done by apprentice with very little experience and oversight. Instead of removing old work boxes and spanning new or screw mounting new ones he is attempting to hack them in areas where old Wall was removed and new installed. This reminds me of how the as my father used to say "the trades are going to ....."

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[MichiganTop5]

You said you have no prints. Do you have specs? Do you have a contract? If you dont have any prior documentation you have established that you don't know what you are doing. Expect the contractor to follow your example.

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It's an insurance job. Everything must be repaired to original specification. They don't have a print. The owners satisfaction is the sign off and I'm sure that no warranty exist in reality. It's a rush job, get it done, but I don't believe you need to toss all quality out the window.

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[MichiganTop5]

I understand your frustration with some of the work. However you didn't start out by telling us all the facts. You wanted us to tell you that using stranded wire around a screw was a code violation and also not a listed method.
we were just pointing out that it's fine/legal/listed to terminate stranded wire this way.

Yes I learned a lot. Also I learned that crimping forks on is not listed

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[Ingenieur]

Yes I'm hired to oversee this job by the owner. There's no prints and I am the warranty LMAO another reason I'm gonna straighten this all out

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the owner
hired an electrical contractor (or a general who supplied the elec)
then hired you to inspect the work or manage the elec contractor?
and you are the legal warranter

Makes no sense
why would you agree to that?
warrant the work of others

 

[kwired]

Out of state down south guy is his only experienced guy. Which in my experience never have I met or seen southern electricians with much quality. PM does no physical work and doesn't appear to train or have skills of his own. Then all the work is done by apprentice with very little experience and oversight. Instead of removing old work boxes and spanning new or screw mounting new ones he is attempting to hack them in areas where old Wall was removed and new installed. This reminds me of how the as my father used to say "the trades are going to ...."

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Where they are from has nothing to do with what they know or how good of work they will do. There are many that participate on this site that are from somewhere down south that are very good at this trade, and I am sure there are hack electricians within your own city that don't really know as much as they maybe should. If they are passing inspections they must not be that bad.

Sounds like the PM is the bigger problem, the apprentices won't be any better then whoever is training them, they are called apprentices because they are still being trained. You however must have been born with a screwdriver in one hand and a wire stripper in the other.

 

[Ingenieur]

Agreed finally someone else who sees the point. So it would appear that this is a gray area issue and difficult to challenge especially when it's a cheap dollar driven low quality ec

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Not a grey area
it complies with code
solid is a preference not a requirement