wrong size wire?

jbwhite · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Table 210.24 Summary of Branch-Circuit Requirements
Circuit Rating 15 A 20 A 30 A 40 A 50 A
Conductors (min. size):
Circuit wires1 14 12 10 8 6
Taps 14 14 14 12 12

That didnt paste well but, if i am not mistaken is says MIN. SIZE

I could not find anything on the maximum size wire for a circuit.

There is a term for this type of enforcement, it is call corruption. We would be going to the next county councel meeting, and you could expalin to the members how your interpertation of the word MINIMUM is different from the way the rest of the world interperates it.

iwire · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

I remodeled an office space in part of it was an existing break room they changed around.

Out went a full size electric range that had been supplied with 6/3 MC.

I reused this 6/3 for new outlets.

One side of the 6/3 fed a 30 amp 120 volt water heater and the other side fed 20 amp counter outlets.

At the panel I pulled out the 2P-50 and replaced it with a SP-30 and a SP-20.

I did not specifically mark this cable other than marking the panel schedule correctly.

Now do you think any electrician is going to see that 6 AWG on a 20 amp breaker and think "I must change that 20 amp breaker to a 60 amp breaker to match the wire size"

jimwalker · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Augie,your inforcing a self made code.Now that you been correceted i hope you change your ways on atleast this issue.If your siteing non code violations i hope someone takes this to court for damages.

augie47 · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

eye of the beholder. i'll take my chances. again not that it matters, it's common enforcement in this area by many inspectors and accepted. Thankfully the working relationship between between the contractors/electricians and inspectors here is such that something like this would rarely even be challanged beyond the pont of asking for an explaination. A majority of the inspectors have a number of years of experience so theres seldom an issue where the call is dead wrong--a few grey areas at times but the builders/contractors have seen that I will go out of my way to help them and I can count on one hand the number of times theres been a disagreement that hasn't been worked out on site. This situation occurrs rarely here, but each time it has, there has been no resistance to comply, since its uniformly enforced here and widely accepted. I am actually shocked at the reaction here, as its always been accepted as a "good idea" when presented and explained in the field.
As Forrest Grump would say..thats all I have to say about that.

jimwalker · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

"since its uniformly enforced here and widely accepted"
So guess that makes it a local code without paper.
Your little town is sitting on a time bomb.A smart EC will go after this and sue for damages to his reputation and any loss in customers for your illegal practice of making up codes .Just where are you at ?

electricmanscott · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Augie I think maybe the reason you are shocked at the reaction is because of the way you portray yourself here. You are an inspector and you pull the "I like it that way" bull. I don't give a crap how you like it if it's legal your opinion is irrelevant.
Perhaps the reason you don't get challenged where you are is because the contractors know you want it "your" way and that's is all that will pass. You mention that some will ask for an explanation, "because I say" is NOT an explanation. Some guys will just put their tails between their legs and say yes sir whatever you like.
I am not one of those guys.

As you can see I may have problem with authority, particularly authority that likes to be overly authoritative.

augie47 · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

again scott, i have never used "cause I say so" as an explaination--never indicated that I did. perhaps its a regional thing, I'd like to think it was a working relationship thing.... I explain what I think needs to be done to assure the job meets NEC and local requirements, I'm willing to listen to any point of view in that regard. If we can't reach agreement, there is an appeals board, but as I say, its only gone that far in less than 5 cases. The guys around here are normally extremely cooperative. I respect your "problem with authority" and I guess over the years I've seen a few folks who have that, but when the job includes inspections by electrical, plumbing, building, mechanical, gas, fire, zoning, storm water, etc. the guys with that type problem don't seem to get much of the work.

George Stolz · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Originally posted by augie47:
I explain what I think needs to be done to assure the job meets NEC and local requirements...

You should be able to back up these thoughts with documents confirming them.

The job meets NEC without nifty labels on the homeruns. Failing for lack of such an item is flat wrong, Augie, sorry.

Those 5 cases you mentioned were probably monumental pains in the rear for the EC, and they patiently put up with the lesser pains.

The NEC is about safety, not "good ideas."

augie47 · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

george, I don't enforce it just beause I "think its a good idea". As I mentioned earlier, I see it as a requirement to assure compliance with 210.24... I respect your right to disagree and due to your wisdom it ways heavy, however,if I was inspecting your job I would do as I did here..explain my reasoning also...if neither of us could sway the other to our way of thinking, we would take it to appeals, Nothing personal...I truely believe its code as do some others. Obviously some don't agree. The fact that I'm here shows I have an interest in performing my job to the best of my ability...as far as my thoughts on this matter, I've not seen anything that positively changes my mind. Rest assured, it will be dicuseed amoung my fellow inspectors, and the end result will be my enforcing the code as best I can with the knowledge and input from others taken into account.

[ December 30, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: augie47 ]

ty · Dec 30, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

augie47,

I'm another who disagrees with your position.
While I might agree that it is 'a good idea', I cannot find a single CODE reference that would require it.

And I do not think that you have shown a single Code reference requiring it.

Was it not you who said:

Originally posted by augie47:

... but I don't like to require what I can't show in writing, and I can't show this.

Click to expand...

And this:

Originally posted by augie47:
...we have an inspector in our group who writes his own code at times

Click to expand...

Why would you want to go to appeals if you can show no CODE reference??
That would be flat out wrong to hold up a job, make someone look bad, and potentially cost someone a customer over an 'opinion'.

You are in Ten,Ten,Tennessee aren't you??

jbwhite · Dec 31, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Aside from the law enforcement officers making up thier own laws issue. I fail to see the added saftey of putting lables like these on the wire.

If a qualified electrician were to open the panel and see a #12 landed on a 15 amp breaker labeled "living room recs north wall" in the panel schedule, he would wonder if the ciruit was all in 12 or voltage drop was an issue. If the breaker was tripping he would look for the cause, not just put in a larger breaker.

As for an unqualified person going into the panel. There is no possible way to protect against the many things that such an individual could do in that panel to create a hazzard or kill himself.

I have seen 14 tapped of a kitchen rec to feed a light above the sink. I am sure the electrician didnt put it there. Maybe next augie will require lables in all the rec boxes.

iwire · Dec 31, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

augie47

You have always seemed like a decent guy and it's to bad you are getting it shoveled at you.

But....

There is nothing in the code book that supports your position, absolutely nothing.

That being the case you are making up rules.

Even if your intentions are for safety it is not right.

You can try to justify it but you can not.

The fact that other inspectors in your area do this is also wrong unless there is a local amendment.

Bob

George Stolz · Dec 31, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Bob, I agree, he's shown himself to be a decent guy, and I hope folks keep chiming in with their take on the issue while maintaining respect for him.

Originally posted by augie47:
As I mentioned earlier, I see it as a requirement to assure compliance with 210.24...

The problem is, is that from the first time a green apprentice installs breakers into a panel, he is taught the gist of 240.4(D) from the start.

14 AWG gets 15 Amps
12 AWG gets 20 Amps
10 AWG gets 30 Amps

We're taught from the start. If bending conduit or pulling rope is akin to an infant learning to walk, then 240.4(D) is a picture of the green guy learning to count. This is our ABC's.

When any electrician looks at that 10 AWG wire on a 20 amp breaker, their interest is peaked. It's unnatural to see an oversized breaker - that's not how we count.

however,if I was inspecting your job I would do as I did here..explain my reasoning also...if neither of us could sway the other to our way of thinking, we would take it to appeals, Nothing personal...

I couldn't follow you to appeals. I have work to do. Arguing with the inspector is as far up the appeals process as I (or my employer) have time to go. That's why only the massacres make it to appeals, and the smaller assaults go unchallenged, Augie.

It's not that you're right, it's just economics. If I give in, I save money and time, so I give in. But our time here is free.

iwire · Dec 31, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

Originally posted by augie47:
to me, 210.24 pretty well backs up my thinking. If its a 20 amp circuit fitting the requirements, the minimum conductor is 12. If you wish to use a 14 somewhere in that circuit (other than allowed by tap rules etc) then, to me it becomes a 15 amp circuit (perhaps with sections of #12 for voltdrop). Other than as permitted in the code, if its a brach circuit with #14 wire involved, to me its a 15 amp circuit.

Actually 210.3 seems to dispute most of that opinion.

210.3 Rating.
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.

Augie, friend, you can not protect idiots from themselves.

A 60 amp disconnect may feed equipment rated at 35 amps and an idiot could place a 60 amp fuse in it.

We can not save the world, if you really believe this labeling adds to safety than you should put in a proposal for a code requirement.

I can not say strongly enough that you can not keep on making up rules for whatever reason.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I couldn't follow you to appeals. I have work to do.

That about sums it up for most of us, we have jobs to get done.

physis · Dec 31, 2005

Re: wrong size wire?

By Bob:

I remodeled an office space in part of it was an existing break room they changed around.

Out went a full size electric range that had been supplied with 6/3 MC.

I reused this 6/3 for new outlets.

One side of the 6/3 fed a 30 amp 120 volt water heater and the other side fed 20 amp counter outlets.

At the panel I pulled out the 2P-50 and replaced it with a SP-30 and a SP-20.

I did not specifically mark this cable other than marking the panel schedule correctly.

Now do you think any electrician is going to see that 6 AWG on a 20 amp breaker and think "I must change that 20 amp breaker to a 60 amp breaker to match the wire size"

I remember that one.

I find it weird though that someone (and you have) would argue in favor of omitting markings or whatever kind of designations that aren't required solely because only qualified (don't forget, hopefully competent) persons should make any changes.

Information is good to have.

I don't know about anyone else, but there have been times when I've been saved some considerable investigation time thanks to documentation. Love that stuff.

Minuteman · Jan 1, 2006

Re: wrong size wire?

Here, the city fathers voted in a small list of "local" codes that supplement the NEC. None of which are more lenient, but rather they are stricter. One such example would be that the city requires all switches located within 5' of a tub or shower to be GFCI protected. No code reference, simply because they say so. Period.(Not a sink or a pool, only a tub or shower.) They have the supplement thing nicely typed up and available at the city desk.

All but one of suburban communities here, including where I live, do not require those supplemented codes. Another Burb has their own supplement. We work in all the metro, so it is important to know the rules where you are working.

Augie you are in support of documentation. So back it up. Send a proposal to your council and should they pass them, then you could post your own 45 mph where the NEC says 55.

George Stolz · Jan 1, 2006

Re: wrong size wire?

Originally posted by physis:
I find it weird though that someone (and you have) would argue in favor of omitting markings or whatever kind of designations that aren't required solely because only qualified (don't forget, hopefully competent) persons should make any changes.

Information is good to have.

I'd willingly do it on my own if I thought I was doing a better job by doing so.

I just hate the idea of failing on inspection based on something not required by code.

The NEC requires us to leave notes on a lot of different installations that it doesn't view in a shining light.

More than one service to a structure
Replacement receptacles without an EGC
Panels fed by PV Inverters at 120 instead of 120/240
White conductors of cables used as ungrounded conductors

In all these scenarios, we're punished by being required to leave some form of communication behind for the next guy.

Increased conductor size is encouraged (but not required) in several FPN's. I believe they'd like to think of it as a rare occurence to see the minimum conductor size used in a circuit.

Can you imagine a world where we voluntarily upsized at every opportunity, and how many notes we'd have to leave behind?

It would be better to have a note on the panel cover from the factory to warn people not to upsize breakers without tracing out the circuit, IMO, as opposed to marking and tagging every HR.

ramsy · Jan 2, 2006

Re: wrong size wire?

Adding "not 2001" 2002 NEC 210-19(A)2 to Bob's earlier reference to NEC 210.3, it seems the NEC expects next-size-down OCD's, but riddles marking of "boards" with references to authorized/qualified personnel.

Augie is right, code omits some considerations for permit-exempt owners and their layman, and epidemics of DIY negligence reported on this forum are constant, but given NEC 90-1 "..not intended ..for untrained persons" making contractors responsible for unqualified practices may be perceived as a threat to livelihoods.

Liability lawyers tend to sue the whole food chain, and code-enforcement precedent that prosecutes contractors for DIY negligence would be very unfortunate for the trade.

If Augie's panel-marking became code it would ignore the more interesting issue in his remarks. For the practice of savings a little material, droping a wire size where Z=VD/I, the higher-impedance(Z) tapp conductor chokes amps & fault clearances alot more than v-drop in parallel circuits.

While matching AWG to OCD guarantees nothing about conductor sizes down stream, if an AHJ shook up predictable pet peaves, by metering a constant load with a true rms cl/amp & volt probe, s/he might find more evidence for calc. errors, shoddy workmanship, high-Z ignition points, and fault-clearance issues.

Since, Z remains constant as load varies, I would gladly correct circuit impedances > 1 ohm, Z=(Volts Dropped/I), on 20A OCD's or the corresponding 17% v-drop, (Z*I/Nominal * 100), if verifable with my own meter. The popular load testers inspectors use can lose accuracy over time.

Boy, am I ready to be an inspector?

[ January 02, 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: ramsy ]

iwire · Jan 2, 2006

Re: wrong size wire?

Originally posted by ramsy:
Boy, am I ready to be an inspector?

I would say no, you are not ready to be an inspector.

At least not an inspector of NEC issues if you are looking to test circuits for voltage drop which is what I get from your posts.

Currently except for a couple of well defined areas the NEC does not have voltage drop requirements.

An inspector would have to pass a GP branch circuit that had 25% VD.

roger · Jan 2, 2006

Re: wrong size wire?

Ramsy, to be fair to those you are inspecting, you would also need to furnish a copy of the rare 2001 NEC.

Roger

wrong size wire?

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