Illegal Business Practices

[RJK42]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post, but a friend of mine confronted me with a dilemma. Apparently his boss wants him to take an electronic engineering stamp from a previous project and use it for future projects. I told him, not to do it and its really bad news. The company can be sued and possible imprisonment. Has anyone ever encountered this?? I would like to present him a case that didn't end up pretty for the company and drafter. Even if there was a case that a small change needed to be made years later, and it came back on the them. I would like to present this asap, he fears that he will lose his job. His boss even asked him via email to do this!!!!

 

[petersonra]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post, but a friend of mine confronted me with a dilemma. Apparently his boss wants him to take an electronic engineering stamp from a previous project and use it for future projects. I told him, not to do it and its really bad news. The company can be sued and possible imprisonment. Has anyone ever encountered this?? I would like to present him a case that didn't end up pretty for the company and drafter. Even if there was a case that a small change needed to be made years later, and it came back on the them. I would like to present this asap, he fears that he will lose his job. His boss even asked him via email to do this!!!!

I am not sure this is actually illegal. I have seen standardized stamped drawings used multiple times for different projects before.

Now if he is talking about creating new drawings and grafting the engineers stamp onto it that is something different.

 

[RJK42]

I am not sure this is actually illegal. I have seen standardized stamped drawings used multiple times for different projects before.

Now if he is talking about creating new drawings and grafting the engineers stamp onto it that is something different.

Yes, its a different project entirely. What also doesn't make sense is that the project is complete already, so why would he ask to have the project stamped?

 

[jim dungar]

Every state has some type of board in charge of 'engineering licenses'. I am not aware of any which allow the 'attachment' of a seal belonging to someone else.

Several of the states I am licensed in, do not even recognize electronically generated seals. At least one of them requires a seal be 'removed' before photocopying. Other states allow an electronic reproduction of the stamp, but not of the signature.

 

[RJK42]

Every state has some type of board in charge of 'engineering licenses'. I am not aware of any which allow the 'attachment' of a seal belonging to someone else.

Several of the states I am licensed in, do not even recognize electronically generated seals. At least one of them requires a seal be 'removed' before photocopying. Other states allow an electronic reproduction of the stamp, but not of the signature.

This is NYS. Also the drawings came in a PDF format which is "secured" but can be unlocked. The The seal has the signature in it.

 

[jim dungar]

This is NYS.

Try this info:
http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/peguide3-seals.htm

 

[cdslotz]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post, but a friend of mine confronted me with a dilemma. Apparently his boss wants him to take an electronic engineering stamp from a previous project and use it for future projects. I told him, not to do it and its really bad news. The company can be sued and possible imprisonment. Has anyone ever encountered this?? I would like to present him a case that didn't end up pretty for the company and drafter. Even if there was a case that a small change needed to be made years later, and it came back on the them. I would like to present this asap, he fears that he will lose his job. His boss even asked him via email to do this!!!!

Is his boss the Engineer of record? Is it his stamp?

 

[drbond24]

WV's professional engineer code

WV's professional engineer code

This is listed in the 'Criminal Offenses' section of the WV PE Laws, Rules, and Regulations.

...or any person presenting or attempting to use the certificate of registration or the seal of another...

In WV it is considered a criminal offense. I would be shocked if it were not so in any other state.

 

[RJK42]

Is his boss the Engineer of record? Is it his stamp?

No, the boss is an electrical contractor. He is a electrician by trade that owns his own company. He hires out an engineer to stamp his projects.

 

[RJK42]

This is listed in the 'Criminal Offenses' section of the WV PE Laws, Rules, and Regulations.



In WV it is considered a criminal offense. I would be shocked if it were not so in any other state.

I am trying to locate that for NYS. Does anyone have quick access to that site. I'll keep searching in the mean time.

 

[petersonra]

Yes, its a different project entirely. What also doesn't make sense is that the project is complete already, so why would he ask to have the project stamped?

Just because it is an entirely different project does not mean the same set of drawings cannot be reused.

I think you need to be very specific about what is happening here. Is there some kind of attempt being made to forge an engineers seal and signature onto a new set of drawings? if so that is a crime. period. merely reusing existing drawings is something else.

If there is some attempt to create sealed drawings after the fact it may be that the project in some way requires sealed drawings and they just do not have them. I do not think there is any way to get sealed drawings "legally" except to have them created under the supervision of a PE. however, if the job required PE stamped drawings, how would he have ever gotten a permit without the drawings in the first place? There is something here that smells bad.

Your best bet is not to get involved at all. Right now you do not know if there is a crime going on or not. If you become aware of criminal activity, it may be that you are required to report it to the proper authorities.

my personal opinion is that this is a legal situation and the entire thread should be removed.

 

[RJK42]

Just because it is an entirely different project does not mean the same set of drawings cannot be reused.

I think you need to be very specific about what is happening here. Is there some kind of attempt being made to forge an engineers seal and signature onto a new set of drawings? if so that is a crime. period. merely reusing existing drawings is something else.

If there is some attempt to create sealed drawings after the fact it may be that the project in some way requires sealed drawings and they just do not have them. I do not think there is any way to get sealed drawings "legally" except to have them created under the supervision of a PE. however, if the job required PE stamped drawings, how would he have ever gotten a permit without the drawings in the first place? There is something here that smells bad.

Your best bet is not to get involved at all. Right now you do not know if there is a crime going on or not. If you become aware of criminal activity, it may be that you are required to report it to the proper authorities.

my personal opinion is that this is a legal situation and the entire thread should be removed.

New project entirely, new set of drawings. I will do what I have to do.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[drbond24]

NY's rules

NY's rules

http://www.op.nysed.gov/title8/subart4.htm

1.Anyone not authorized to practice under this title who practices or offers to practice or holds himself out as being able to practice in any profession in which a license is a prerequisite to the practice of the acts, or who practices any profession as an exempt person during the time when his professional license is suspended, revoked or annulled, or who aids or abets an unlicensed person to practice a profession, or who fraudulently sells, files, furnishes, obtains, or who attempts fraudulently to sell, file, furnish or obtain any diploma, license, record or permit purporting to authorize the practice of a profession, shall be guilty of a class E felony.

This looks like the applicable clause.

 

[petersonra]

New project entirely, new set of drawings. I will do what I have to do.

Thanks for all your input.

Since you are not involved, it may well be best for you to do nothing.

 

[cdslotz]

No, the boss is an electrical contractor. He is a electrician by trade that owns his own company. He hires out an engineer to stamp his projects.

Ok then. If I was the hired engineer, and he did that without consent, I would jump down bosses throat, and then stop doing business with him immediately.

Having said that, some EC's have long relations with an EE friend that he may allow the stamp to plotted onto the EC's drawings, because the EE has been reviewing drawings throughout the design.

 

[gadfly56]

Just because it is an entirely different project does not mean the same set of drawings cannot be reused.

I think you need to be very specific about what is happening here. Is there some kind of attempt being made to forge an engineers seal and signature onto a new set of drawings? if so that is a crime. period. merely reusing existing drawings is something else.

If there is some attempt to create sealed drawings after the fact it may be that the project in some way requires sealed drawings and they just do not have them. I do not think there is any way to get sealed drawings "legally" except to have them created under the supervision of a PE. however, if the job required PE stamped drawings, how would he have ever gotten a permit without the drawings in the first place? There is something here that smells bad.

Your best bet is not to get involved at all. Right now you do not know if there is a crime going on or not. If you become aware of criminal activity, it may be that you are required to report it to the proper authorities.

my personal opinion is that this is a legal situation and the entire thread should be removed.

If, as a PE, I create a work product (drawings) for one customer, I cannot reuse that product for another customer without the first customer's approval. It's different if you're talking about drawings that might be considered standard details.

If the boss is creating drawings in-house or having them created by a third party and then applying the engineer's electronic seal this is just all sorts of bad. The AG will come after him for the felony, the Board of Engineers wil come after him for practicing engineering without a license, the Board of Electrical Examiners (or their equal in NYS) will probably consider yanking his contractor's license, and the engineer is likely to file a civil suit. How to screw up your life in one easy step. And for what? We've had drawings reviewed by license holders for other states, and it's usually $100 - $300 per sheet, depending on the complexity. Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[TimK]

Ethically, this has bad written all over it. If, as you describe, your boss will be done. It would take some real "stupidity" to just think you could get away with it.

Now, flip this coin over. What kind of relationship does said boss and engineer have? Do they BBQ on weekends and say, "Joe, I transferred your stamp on three projects this week. Oh that's ok John I trust ya, just when you get a chance could you run them by my office so I have a copy for my file?"

 

[Gregg Harris]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post, but a friend of mine confronted me with a dilemma. Apparently his boss wants him to take an electronic engineering stamp from a previous project and use it for future projects. I told him, not to do it and its really bad news. The company can be sued and possible imprisonment. Has anyone ever encountered this?? I would like to present him a case that didn't end up pretty for the company and drafter. Even if there was a case that a small change needed to be made years later, and it came back on the them. I would like to present this asap, he fears that he will lose his job. His boss even asked him via email to do this!!!!

www.registerstar.com/news/article_fd7c4738-85c9-5f81-88b9-

 

[Gregg Harris]

Ethically, this has bad written all over it. If, as you describe, your boss will be done. It would take some real "stupidity" to just think you could get away with it.

Now, flip this coin over. What kind of relationship does said boss and engineer have? Do they BBQ on weekends and say, "Joe, I transferred your stamp on three projects this week. Oh that's ok John I trust ya, just when you get a chance could you run them by my office so I have a copy for my file?"

Your scenario is still a fellony.

 

[TimK]

Your scenario is still a fellony.

I understand that it could be constured into a felony by somebody sticking thier nose in where it doesn't belong, but if these two are long time friends, one is helping the other with a stamp and the other is not just putting simple stuff on his friends desk that lightens his work load. What if he is paying him ontop of all this for his stamp and verbal approval over the phone?