another AFCI nuisance trip question

[mbrooke]

:?:?:blink::blink: Page Four has a table and color pictures. . .??? I can find nothing in the entire EIGHT page article that says: "Romex Jockey is saying XXXXX (a manufacturer) has removed GFP from their AFCI."

To the contrary, I can read:
Neither a confirmation nor a denial of a second manufacturer of an AFCI without ground fault sensing.

Romex Jockey has unambiguously stated that there is a second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed ground fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI.

Who is the second manufacturer?

Look at which has the increased tripping times.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Look at which has the increased tripping times.

I frankly don't think you could be any more oblique.

Time is not a manufacturer of Combination-type AFCIs.

 

[mbrooke]

I frankly don't think you could be any more oblique.

Time is not a manufacturer of Combination-type AFCIs.

Ahem:

A single Square D AFCI combination circuit breaker was used in all 13 test sequences (labeled A through M). A single Eaton AFCI combination circuit breaker was used in all 6 test sequences (labeled E1 through E6).

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ahem:

A single Square D AFCI combination circuit breaker was used in all 13 test sequences (labeled A through M). A single Eaton AFCI combination circuit breaker was used in all 6 test sequences (labeled E1 through E6).

Oblique.

No statement about Ground Fault sensing.

However, the same authors, in this SAME document, DO WRITE:

More specifically, manufacturers have included the following types of features in their various circuit protection devices:

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI)
Ground Fault Equipment Protection (GFEP)
Grounded Neutral Sensor (GNS)

Most are familiar with the GFCI circuit protection device, which responds to a current imbalance of 5 mA or more between hot and neutral. The GFEP is similar, but is NOT listed for shock protection – a typical imbalance or trip value is 30 to 50 mA. The GNS senses a condition whereby the ground and neutral are shorted together downstream; when this happens, the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) is electrically in parallel with the neutral, allowing the EGC to carry current in normal operation – a condition that is absolutely forbidden by the NEC.

Any one of these features (GFCI, GFEP, GNS) may be present in the specific circuit protection device which is associated with the circuits being examined at a scene. The circuit protection device can be tripped in association with any one of these features in reaction to the fire, along with the AFCI circuitry, as well as from direct heat impingement on the device.

Who is the second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed Ground Fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI?

 

[mbrooke]

Oblique.

No statement about Ground Fault sensing.

However, the same authors, in this SAME document, DO WRITE:


Who is the second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed Ground Fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI?

I agree its oblique, but bear with me:

NOT ALL AFCI’S ARE CREATED EQUAL
The reader is cautioned that not every AFCI works the same. Basically, every AFCI is designed to test for the signature of an arcing connection. However, this is where the similarity ends. It is necessary for the investigator to know more about the brand and model of ACFIs in use. Why? Because the manufacturers have added other safety features in the AFCIs, of which, there is no uniformity among manufacturers. More specifically, manufacturers have included the following types of features in their various circuit protection devices:
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI)
Ground Fault Equipment Protection (GFEP)
Grounded Neutral Sensor (GNS)

The author seems to imply that via testing, one AFCI has it the other does not.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The author seems to imply that via testing, one AFCI has it the other does not.

No, they are not. They are very clear to the contrary.

The circuit protection device can be tripped in association with any one of these features in reaction to the fire, along with the AFCI circuitry, as well as from direct heat impingement on the device.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Who is the second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed Ground Fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI?

 

[mbrooke]

No, they are not. They are very clear to the contrary.

Then why did one take longer to trip? Why do they even bring up GFP? What is the paper trying to even prove?

Sorry for the late reply :ashamed1:

 

[mbrooke]

Who is the second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed Ground Fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI?

Cutler Hammer, as the papers mentions.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Cutler Hammer, as the papers mentions.

In fact, the paper names the breaker as a:

We tested a Square-D QO120DF 20-amp combination AFCI and an Eaton CHFCAF115 15-Amp combination AFCI.

Mbrooke, you do realize, don't you, that a CHFCAF has an LED Trip Indication, as a standard feature, that gives a "blink trip code?" The #5 trip code is for GROUND FAULT.

The CH line of Cutler Hammer AFCIs most definitely has ground fault sensing.

This is straight from the Instruction Leaflet for the 3/4" CH, the 1" BR, the 1" QB and the 1" CL CAFCIs. The instruction leaflet is available at this page. Expand the "Instructions" link under the "Documentation" tab.

 

[mbrooke]

In fact, the paper names the breaker as a:


Mbrooke, you do realize, don't you, that a CHFCAF has an LED Trip Indication, as a standard feature, that gives a "blink trip code?" The #5 trip code is for GROUND FAULT.

The CH line of Cutler Hammer AFCIs most definitely has ground fault sensing.

This is straight from the Instruction Leaflet for the 3/4" CH, the 1" BR, the 1" QB and the 1" CL CAFCIs. The instruction leaflet is available at this page. Expand the "Instructions" link under the "Documentation" tab.

Maybe its for an old version?

If someone could PM MasterTheNEC, he would know.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Maybe its for an old version?

Did you even follow the link? The Instruction Leaflet is from EATON itself, TODAY.

READ the leaflet. It is dated: Effective June 2016.

 

[mbrooke]

Did you even follow the link? The Instruction Leaflet is from EATON itself, TODAY.

READ the leaflet. It is dated: Effective June 2016.

And if the GFP was taken out in 2017?

 

[al hildenbrand]

And if the GFP was taken out in 2017?

Oh come on!

Buy one. Hot off the shelves with the highest turnover, so the stock is the absolute freshest from the factory.

If you connect the neutral to an EGC, or other grounded conductive surface, you will not get the CH AFCI to stay on.

Read the instruction leaflet in the package and it will be the SAME that you can link to at EATON.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Mbrooke, your lack of hands-on-the-materials experience is showing.

 

[mbrooke]

Oh come on!

Buy one. Hot off the shelves with the highest turnover, so the stock is the absolute freshest from the factory.

If you connect the neutral to an EGC, or other grounded conductive surface, you will not get the CH AFCI to stay on.

Read the instruction leaflet in the package and it will be the SAME that you can link to at EATON.

Try it on video and prove us wrong :thumbsup: In this case I might actually be wrong because I'm just guessing based on what RJ's link is saying. But again, I have no issue being proven wrong.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The Eaton PDF that I link to (Effective June 2016) contains new information, also, about the BR line of Combination-Type AFCIs. The PDF states that the BR can exhibit the Trip Indication blink code by a lighted push button, available as an option.

The reason I point this out is that several others, here, at the Forum, have claimed that the Eaton type BR 1" Combination-Type AFCI had its ground fault sensing removed. Since the PDF shows the same blink codes as the CH, I submit that the BR still has ground fault detection, per this manufacturer document.

LED trip indication

Breakers may be equipped with a diagnostic LED that indicates the cause of trip. BR (1”), QB (1”) and CL (1”) breakers are equipped with a lighted pushbutton as an option; CH (3/4”) breakers include LED trip indication as a standard feature.

 

[romex jockey]

you connect the neutral to an EGC, or other grounded conductive surface, you will not get the CH AFCI to stay on.

Which would be a parallel fault Al.


It would simply be a matter of what R value 'sees it'

The reason I point this out is that several others, here, at the Forum, have claimed that the Eaton type BR 1" Combination-Type AFCI had its ground fault sensing removed. Since the PDF shows the same blink codes as the CH, I submit that the BR still has ground fault detection, per this manufacturer document.

and does this doc state the R trip value ?


further, reading this thread , as well as many past threads of similar topic has shown me two camps

those who believe manufacturers, and those who do not

Those that continue being confrontational ,insisting on some manufacturers doc (or patent info, if you've gone that far) to hang hat on just don't get it


Those that live in the real world can come to their own conclusions, like this NFPA EE >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLmC5quELrE

~RJ~

 

[al hildenbrand]

you connect the neutral to an EGC, or other grounded conductive surface, you will not get the CH AFCI to stay on.

Which would be a parallel fault Al.

It would simply be a matter of what R value 'sees it'

So?

A parallel fault can either be detected by a ground fault sensing component that operates and interrupts the overcurrent device, or, in the absence of a ground fault sensing component results in no overcurrent device interruption. An unintentional ground fault will eat my lunch and cut my income.

Do the same thing with the load neutral protected by a GE Combination-Type AFCI and you will not get an interruption of the overcurrent device. This is a real world behavior I can take to the bank.

Those that live in the real world can come to their own conclusions

RJ, in my "real world" I can't possibly use the Bob Huddleston YouTube video on my electrical inspectors for anything other than a laugh.

In my "real world" I CAN use the June 2016 Eaton Instruction Leaflet with my electrical inspectors as the MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS.

Your oblique and confusing attempts at explaining is not helpful directly, but as a result of it spurring me to again search for information, has, in fact, lead me to discover the new (to me) presence of the June 2016 Instruction Leaflet. . . and THAT is something that my electrical inspectors will honor as "real". AND this June 2016 Instruction Leaflet also applies to EATON Type BR, Type CL and Type QB along with Type CH and clearly indicates that they all have a blink code for Ground Fault.

 

[mbrooke]

So?

A parallel fault can either be detected by a ground fault sensing component that operates and interrupts the overcurrent device, or, in the absence of a ground fault sensing component results in no overcurrent device interruption. An unintentional ground fault will eat my lunch and cut my income.

Remember that a Parallel arc fault is nothing more than a short circuit that produces a visible emition of light according to UL1699. If fault current available from the source if high enough it will trip the breaker magnetically, if the source is short circuit limited the sputtering signature will hopefully be detected by the electronics and trip the breaker. In fact thats the only reason why branch feeder AFCIs have electronics, because the short circuit current may be less than 150-200amps.

Do the same thing with the load neutral protected by a GE Combination-Type AFCI and you will not get an interruption of the overcurrent device. This is a real world behavior I can take to the bank.


RJ, in my "real world" I can't possibly use the Bob Huddleston YouTube video on my electrical inspectors for anything other than a laugh.

In my "real world" I CAN use the June 2016 Eaton Instruction Leaflet with my electrical inspectors as the MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS.

Your oblique and confusing attempts at explaining is not helpful directly, but as a result of it spurring me to again search for information, has, in fact, lead me to discover the new (to me) presence of the June 2016 Instruction Leaflet. . . and THAT is something that my electrical inspectors will honor as "real". AND this June 2016 Instruction Leaflet also applies to EATON Type BR, Type CL and Type QB along with Type CH and clearly indicates that they all have a blink code for Ground Fault.

I will PM Paul. In the meantime, can you PM Cutler Hammer and ask if there breakers can handle MWBC?