another AFCI nuisance trip question

[al hildenbrand]

Remember that a Parallel arc fault is nothing more than a short circuit that produces a visible emition of light according to UL1699. If fault current available from the source if high enough it will trip the breaker magnetically,. . . .

:blink: Whoa now Hoss. Don't put concepts in my mouth. I refuse to be taken out of context. Parallel, yes, as this is the NEUTRAL coming into connection with an effective low impedance grounded return path either on the EGC and/or other conductive paths.

In the meantime, can you PM Cutler Hammer and ask if there breakers can handle MWBC?

Why? That's why they sell the two pole AFCIs. None of the EATON AFCIs can do what GE single pole Combination-Type AFCIs can do because the EATON devices ALL have ground fault sensing.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Lastly, I'm satisfied. The discovery of the "new" June 2016 Eaton Instruction Leaflet for CH, BR, CL and QB Combination-Type AFCIs has provided the manufacturer's documentation that I needed to know that they are all, in fact, limited in use by their ground fault sensing.

ONLY GE Combination-type AFCI has no ground fault sensing component and does not sense anything on the branch circuit neutral, even when it is connected to the breaker load neutral terminal.

 

[mbrooke]

:blink: Whoa now Hoss. Don't put concepts in my mouth. I refuse to be taken out of context. Parallel, yes, as this is the NEUTRAL coming into connection with an effective low impedance grounded return path either on the EGC and/or other conductive paths.

Ok- that be my mistake. Parellel to me is hot to neutral or hot to ground.

Why? That's why they sell the two pole AFCIs. None of the EATON AFCIs can do what GE single pole Combination-Type AFCIs can do because the EATON devices ALL have ground fault sensing.

He would know, he is on the CMP and works for a wire manufacture.

 

[romex jockey]

Lastly, I'm satisfied. The discovery of the "new" June 2016 Eaton Instruction Leaflet for CH, BR, CL and QB Combination-Type AFCIs has provided the manufacturer's documentation that I needed to know that they are all, in fact, limited in use by their ground fault sensing.

ONLY GE Combination-type AFCI has no ground fault sensing component and does not sense anything on the branch circuit neutral, even when it is connected to the breaker load neutral terminal.

Indeed, more manufacturers documents , no more than sales blaher garnished with tech support jargon is held beyond reproach

Meanwhile intergral sorts such as Dr Joe Engel ,or Bob H , who hail from the R&D dawn of said technology have their concerns summarily roundfiled by cmp-2 w/o substaintiation

Dini, Trotta ,along with a number of career alternates have seen to that

'Screwed Down' , as Mr Cyril Charles has explained ,time after time...

So you make my point Al , our trades very own junk science fueled via one toadie after yet another w/o questioning , w/o asking, w/o investigating, and certainly w/o 'real world' experience(s)

Go you!

~RJ~

 

[al hildenbrand]

Indeed, more manufacturers documents , no more than sales blaher garnished with tech support jargon is held beyond reproach

Meanwhile intergral sorts such as Dr Joe Engel ,or Bob H , who hail from the R&D dawn of said technology have their concerns summarily roundfiled by cmp-2 w/o substaintiation

Dini, Trotta ,along with a number of career alternates have seen to that

'Screwed Down' , as Mr Cyril Charles has explained ,time after time...

So you make my point Al , our trades very own junk science fueled via one toadie after yet another w/o questioning , w/o asking, w/o investigating, and certainly w/o 'real world' experience(s)

Go you!

~RJ~

RJ, you, just like Dogberry, the Constable, in Much Ado About Nothing, appear to me much too clever to be understood.

 

[mbrooke]

Indeed, more manufacturers documents , no more than sales blaher garnished with tech support jargon is held beyond reproach

Meanwhile intergral sorts such as Dr Joe Engel ,or Bob H , who hail from the R&D dawn of said technology have their concerns summarily roundfiled by cmp-2 w/o substaintiation

Dini, Trotta ,along with a number of career alternates have seen to that

'Screwed Down' , as Mr Cyril Charles has explained ,time after time...

So you make my point Al , our trades very own junk science fueled via one toadie after yet another w/o questioning , w/o asking, w/o investigating, and certainly w/o 'real world' experience(s)

Go you!

~RJ~

So wait, Eaton has or has not GFP now? :huh:

 

[al hildenbrand]

So wait, Eaton has or has not GFP now? :huh:

Mbrooke, it's real simple if you go to the manufacturer's June 2016 instructions. Buy the CAFCI breaker or go to the Eaton web site that I link to a few pages back and read the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions.

The instructions show a #5 GROUND FAULT trip indication blink code for ALL flavors of their CAFCI breakers, whether there is an trip indicator light or not. The same instructions REQUIRE the branch circuit load neutral to be connected to the CAFCI breaker load neutral terminal, or else the breaker will never initialize.

The BR line may have had ground fault sensing removed once upon a time (per the unsubstantiated rumor I recall others at this Forum repeating), but, the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions, NOW, indicate otherwise (Effective June, 2016).

The link RJ provided that you interpreted to imply no GF sensing in the Eaton CH type CAFCI breakers is just plain misinterpreted. The CH type CAFCI has always had GF sensing built into it.

Now, per other posts in other threads, RJ explains his "real world experience" with GE and other brands of Combination-Type AFCI, but in this thread, he seems to be incapable of responding directly to direct questions with anything other than word salad. I wish he would talk about his "real world experience" with installing Eaton Combination-Type AFCI breakers on multiwire branch circuits of existing dwellings.

 

[romex jockey]

Now, per other posts in other threads, RJ explains his "real world experience" with GE and other brands of Combination-Type AFCI, but in this thread, he seems to be incapable of responding directly to direct questions with anything other than word salad. I wish he would talk about his "real world experience" with installing Eaton Combination-Type AFCI breakers on multiwire branch circuits of existing dwellings.

I'll take it you're happy with this Al>


http://apps.geindustrial.com/publib...lename=DET-719 CAFCI Shared Neutral Guide.pdf


~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

The BR line may have had ground fault sensing removed once upon a time (per the unsubstantiated rumor I recall others at this Forum repeating), but, the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions, NOW, indicate otherwise (Effective June, 2016).

I see

So much like the decade of late 90's thru '08 'afci' , that was fraudulently marketed ,subsequently morphing into 210.12's "listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker" in the '11 cycle, they'll need some trade related bureaucracy to cover their nut

and you think i'm 'word salad'......lol!

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

Mbrooke, it's real simple if you go to the manufacturer's June 2016 instructions. Buy the CAFCI breaker or go to the Eaton web site that I link to a few pages back and read the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions.

The instructions show a #5 GROUND FAULT trip indication blink code for ALL flavors of their CAFCI breakers, whether there is an trip indicator light or not. The same instructions REQUIRE the branch circuit load neutral to be connected to the CAFCI breaker load neutral terminal, or else the breaker will never initialize.

The BR line may have had ground fault sensing removed once upon a time (per the unsubstantiated rumor I recall others at this Forum repeating), but, the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions, NOW, indicate otherwise (Effective June, 2016).

The link RJ provided that you interpreted to imply no GF sensing in the Eaton CH type CAFCI breakers is just plain misinterpreted. The CH type CAFCI has always had GF sensing built into it.

Now, per other posts in other threads, RJ explains his "real world experience" with GE and other brands of Combination-Type AFCI, but in this thread, he seems to be incapable of responding directly to direct questions with anything other than word salad. I wish he would talk about his "real world experience" with installing Eaton Combination-Type AFCI breakers on multiwire branch circuits of existing dwellings.

It could be so, but also remember that instructions can be wrong. I don't know, but RJ is implying that they don't have GFP based on using them in the field- at least it seems that way.

 

[peter d]

Mbrooke, it's real simple if you go to the manufacturer's June 2016 instructions. Buy the CAFCI breaker or go to the Eaton web site that I link to a few pages back and read the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions.

The instructions show a #5 GROUND FAULT trip indication blink code for ALL flavors of their CAFCI breakers, whether there is an trip indicator light or not. The same instructions REQUIRE the branch circuit load neutral to be connected to the CAFCI breaker load neutral terminal, or else the breaker will never initialize.

The BR line may have had ground fault sensing removed once upon a time (per the unsubstantiated rumor I recall others at this Forum repeating), but, the Eaton CAFCI manufacturer's instructions, NOW, indicate otherwise (Effective June, 2016).

The link RJ provided that you interpreted to imply no GF sensing in the Eaton CH type CAFCI breakers is just plain misinterpreted. The CH type CAFCI has always had GF sensing built into it.

Now, per other posts in other threads, RJ explains his "real world experience" with GE and other brands of Combination-Type AFCI, but in this thread, he seems to be incapable of responding directly to direct questions with anything other than word salad. I wish he would talk about his "real world experience" with installing Eaton Combination-Type AFCI breakers on multiwire branch circuits of existing dwellings.

Maybe you shouldn't take this so seriously. :roll::roll::roll:

 

[romex jockey]

Maybe 110.3B should not rule the rest of the NEC either Pete

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

Maybe 110.3B should not rule the rest of the NEC either Pete

~RJ~

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

This is one of those things which can either be really good, or really bad. Seen it used on 6 throws... :happyno:

 

[al hildenbrand]

I'll take it you're happy with this Al>
GE Guide for using single pole CAFCI on Multiwire Branch Circuits

Happy :blink::? My emotions have nothing to do with this. This is business, plain and simple. I am bound by the NEC, by my licenses, by Minnesota State law, by the UL White Book, by my insurance carrier and by the expectation of my customer that I will perform for them in their best interest. I can face any branch circuit configuration in any age of a house with only single pole GE CAFCIs and standard breakers and handle ties and an occasional dual function AFCI/GFCI. This is good business. It would be better if the rest of the manufacturers figured out how to drop the ground fault sensing.

I see

So much like the decade of late 90's thru '08 'afci' , that was fraudulently marketed ,subsequently morphing into 210.12's "listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker" in the '11 cycle, they'll need some trade related bureaucracy to cover their nut

and you think i'm 'word salad'......lol!

~RJ~

DO you see? I don't think you do. You seem to have forgotten how hard we (here at the Forum) all worked to resist the legalistic box / vacuum that the NEC, NFPA, UL & the NRTLs, and the local jurisdiction's adopting into local statute has, in fact, created enabling 210.12 and 406.4.

 

[romex jockey]

Happy :blink::? My emotions have nothing to do with this. This is business, plain and simple. I am bound by the NEC, by my licenses, by Minnesota State law, by the UL White Book, by my insurance carrier and by the expectation of my customer that I will perform for them in their best interest. I can face any branch circuit configuration in any age of a house with only single pole GE CAFCIs and standard breakers and handle ties and an occasional dual function AFCI/GFCI. This is good business. It would be better if the rest of the manufacturers figured out how to drop the ground fault sensing.



DO you see? I don't think you do. You seem to have forgotten how hard we (here at the Forum) all worked to resist the legalistic box / vacuum that the NEC, NFPA, UL & the NRTLs, and the local jurisdiction's adopting into local statute has, in fact, created enabling 210.12 and 406.4.

One can be simultaneously compliant and resistant Al.

For example, right now nema has launched an entire dis-information campaign ,paid speakers who appear at trade meetings and events ,foisting afci canards as well as revising their history.

Easy for a billion $$$ industry to do , even easier when their audiences don't question them.

I would encourage we as ethical professionals ,be us electricians or FF's, EE's, architects ,ahj's etc do just that. For starters the ONE document they all wish would go away is this>

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

I would further encourage not only reading it, but investigating all it's avenues. CMP-2 shut Dr Joe Engel down , but they can't shut down the grass root spread of his truth ,and it is to this day the most truthful doc from a phd level EE who nema let go, because he refused to fudge it all their way.

Now if you're (et all) on board, spread this doc around , you would not believe how many had no idea it exists (no trade rag will publish it) , hand it to your ahj, email it to whatever 'powers that be' exist in your states trade bureaucratic hierarchy , and lastly inform the public we work for of it's controversy

Know that this may cost you as a business man , that's the price of being an ethical one ,especially if you enjoy creating tirades where nema men speak ( i enjoyed it too)

Easy when they're enlightened that the fundametals of electriciy do not change , easy when the testing is revealed, easy when we point out the lies....


You should also be aware that simple point of use thermal dynamics is the only viable ,as well as time honored answer on the market today. This is the biggest threat the afci industry is confronted with btw.

They'd buy it in a heartbeat, but the inventor won't budge. So the international patent war has continued now for quite some time

https://youtu.be/2OIldZAChpU

in closing, God speed & Good luck

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

You should also be aware that simple point of use thermal dynamics is the only viable ,as well as time honored answer on the market today. This is the biggest threat the afci industry is confronted with btw.


~RJ~

Yup- for "series arcing" aka joule heating. In addition to GFP and standard circuit breakers for "parallel arc faults"

 

[romex jockey]

2nd that MBrooke

It is an educated public, or spark for that matter that counts here

No it's not easy , but you know that having been along for the ride

thx

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

2nd that MBrooke

It is an educated public, or spark for that matter that counts here

No it's not easy , but you know that having been along for the ride

thx

~RJ~

It requires abandoning much of what you thought and perceived- ie like the unbiased well meaning of UL...

 

[romex jockey]

Indeed so MBrooke

what so many do not realize is , 'safety' is big biz here, and the lions share of our trades bureacracy is motivated by the almighty buck

The capitalistic society we reside in, has only capitalistic remedies

Thus the altruistims they thrown about are less and less viable.

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

Indeed so MBrooke

what so many do not realize is , 'safety' is big biz here, and the lions share of our trades bureacracy is motivated by the almighty buck

The capitalistic society we reside in, has only capitalistic remedies

Thus the altruistims they thrown about are less and less viable.

~RJ~

The goal is to never actually solve the problem or admit that the problem has actually been solved long ago. As such the marketing scheme is to have products that claim to fix a problem that does not exist, or claim to fix a problem when in reality said problem will never be resolved by said solution. It was here that people caught on, so CAIFI breakers now do what branch feeder arc faults claimed to do. It won't be long when realization comes that the CAFCI does not do what it claims to do.