Aprentice charges on service, and small jobs

[iwire]

It's kind of fun to go to the supply house and see guys with those big freightliner vans, elaborate signs on the sides, uniforms, and big, big overhead! They snicker when I drive up in my little Ford Ranger.
Thing is when business is slow I don't sweat it, I go fishing!
Rick

Rick I am a firm believer in each person having different ideas of success and I have no ambition to run a company at all.

That said you are not building any equity in your business. That may not be important to you but it is to many.

When you decide to retire could you sell your business and retire on the profits of that sale?

 

[Sparky555]

Your mean

I do have medical coverage,My service truck is 2006, my kids are grown and gone, and graduated I might add, my slow time is my vacation, and oh yes my daughter and son-inlaw live in a pretty nice home and can manage their affairs just fine, AND my retirement is already in place. AND if I want to keep my overhead low and you want to keep yours high, isnt this America?

I thought you said in an earlier post that you considered medical a personal expense. I'm not quite following how your SIL is living the good life on $20/billable hour. That seems like a part time job w/o benefits.

Anyway, for a guy asking the forum for advice you seem to be fighting the advice more than taking it. How did you ever come up with the name Mule?

Dave

 

[jrannis]

Rick I am a firm believer in each person having different ideas of success and I have no ambition to run a company at all.

That said you are not building any equity in your business. That may not be important to you but it is to many.

When you decide to retire could you sell your business and retire on the profits of that sale?

Seriously, how many people can sell their EC business? With very rare exception, everything is job to job without service contracts. The best most can do is unload their inventory or tools at pennies on the dollar.

 

[emahler]

I thought you said in an earlier post that you considered medical a personal expense. I'm not quite following how your SIL is living the good life on $20/billable hour. That seems like a part time job w/o benefits.

Anyway, for a guy asking the forum for advice you seem to be fighting the advice more than taking it. How did you ever come up with the name Mule?

Dave

Dave, the SIL is a professional firefighter...that's what pays the way...benefits, pension, cash, etc...the electrical is a sideline...

Let the SIL not want to do electrical work, then try to find someone to replace him for the same money

 

[emahler]

Seriously, how many people can sell their EC business? With very rare exception, everything is job to job without service contracts. The best most can do is unload their inventory or tools at pennies on the dollar.

you are correct for the majority of contractors...but most contractor operate like Mule and Wolfman...

however, there are many EC's that are sold every year...but they all have common characteristics...and most are sold to HVAC or Plumbing Contractors, looking to grow, who also have the same characteristics.

But you are definitely correct, the majority of EC's out there will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar for their company. So you better make enough money to be able to pull it out and invest in something else that will make you money for retirement..

 

[emahler]

Mule, given that these questions were asked by you in the OP, and you put them out for all on this forum to read and respond to, I find your defensiveness more than a little silly. People post here on their own free time, and as Emahler said, no one has a vested interest in your success of your failure. So if you don't like the advice you got here, that's just too bad. You don't always hear what you want to hear on a forum.

because there is some sense of anonymity on a forum, the advice you get can get real harsh, real quick...but sometimes it's the best advice you will ever get. People aren't afraid to hurt your feelings like they are in real life.

Maybe the advice doesn't pertain to you...maybe it does and you just don't want to admit it...maybe it just gives you food for thought from a different point of view...

but when talking about business, money, and success, there is no room for niceness...

 

[iwire]

Seriously, how many people can sell their EC business? With very rare exception, everything is job to job without service contracts. The best most can do is unload their inventory or tools at pennies on the dollar.

Are you serious? :-?

A number of members here have sold their business. Companies I have worked for have been bought and sold.

Regardless, if you don't put something back into the business it seems to me you would have no chance of getting anything at the end.

Kind of like the difference between renting a home and buying one. If you buy it you have a chance of making money, if you rent it you will never make money. :smile:

 

[iwire]

there is no room for niceness...

Well in the real world that is true, the forum is not the real world and some civility will be maintained.

 

[emahler]

Well in the real world that is true, the forum is not the real world and some civility will be maintained.

shake a leaf, Boss?

you can maintain civility in the meanest of conditions...niceness and civility are not necessarily mutual.

 

[Mule]

Thanks,.... I do apreciate the comments and help..Only when I mentioned that my overhead was $10 did I get bombarded with negatizism, and THAT I didnt ask for....My discussion string is plain and simple, and it amazes me how the wolves chew at your heels if they get a chance.....I dont take any crap and I apologize if I took someone wrong. But Im not going to bow down to folks who have huge companies in huge cities. You have to except the fact that there ARE different markets in this great country. Im not a business man, I'm a electrician at heart and I enjoy working for my customer and thats the simplicity of that.....and if some of you were in my town....I'd probably smoke you....but I would always shake your hand.:smile:

 

[emahler]

Thanks,.... I do apreciate the comments and help..Only when I mentioned that my overhead was $10 did I get bombarded with negatizism, and THAT I didnt ask for....My discussion string is plain and simple, and it amazes me how the wolves chew at your heels if they get a chance.....I dont take any crap and I apologize if I took someone wrong. But Im not going to bow down to folks who have huge companies in huge cities. You have to except the fact that there ARE different markets in this great country. Im not a business man, I'm a electrician at heart and I enjoy working for my customer and thats the simplicity of that.....and if some of you were in my town....I'd probably smoke you....but I would always shake your hand.:smile:

again, no one is asking you to bow down...what I am asserting is that you aren't fully aware of your overhead...if you want to charge $20/hr that is your right...but charge it with the full knowledge of what your true costs are. Don't charge it under a misguided notion.

 

[Mule]

again, no one is asking you to bow down...what I am asserting is that you aren't fully aware of your overhead...if you want to charge $20/hr that is your right...but charge it with the full knowledge of what your true costs are. Don't charge it under a misguided notion.

As earliier stated.....I tried $75, $85, $95 on these SMALL jobs and thhe problem was the size of job (not enough task to be efficient)......I never stated what I charge on larger jobs. Did you ever think that maybe I dont need the money all that much, and I might be trying to help my SIL? Most of the contractors around here are getting $100 for journeyman and appprentice and seem to do fine, but they dont have two people on small jobs.

So with this added info I just gave....dont bombard me, just accept the fact that other folks in other towns live just fine, and their kids go to college, and they have medical benifeits and retire just fine, and they are quite normal and they do it all on $60 for a journeyman and $100 for two

 

[jmsbrush]

Thanks,.... I do apreciate the comments and help..Only when I mentioned that my overhead was $10 did I get bombarded with negatizism, and THAT I didnt ask for....My discussion string is plain and simple, and it amazes me how the wolves chew at your heels if they get a chance.....I dont take any crap and I apologize if I took someone wrong. But Im not going to bow down to folks who have huge companies in huge cities. You have to except the fact that there ARE different markets in this great country. Im not a business man, I'm a electrician at heart and I enjoy working for my customer and thats the simplicity of that.....and if some of you were in my town....I'd probably smoke you....but I would always shake your hand.:smile:

Mule, I am a small shop at this time, I have one new van on the road, I have one employee, I started out with Ten thousand dollars and every penny that I made was getting my business going. Just to get you're Lic down here it will cost you around $5000.00. You have to show that you're worth X amount of money, which most pple have to get a loan for that. With all that the guys said on over head, Worker's comp, Liability insurance at least a minimun of $1,000,000, gas,office expenses ,estimating programs, the tools you need on the job which will need to be replaced because of wear and tear or stolen. Phone, advertising,Medical insurance, retirement, the list goes on and on. The point is, I have read every post on this thread and no one is trying to put you down, they are simply trying to answer the questions you asked, sometimes we don't like the answers,but theses guys want to help, Satcom told me one time when in I first got in here on a pm That he didn't want to see me make the mistakes that so many have done and some he has done when he started out.
You said that you are an electrician at heart and not a business man, well I guarantee thats how most of us started out, my self as well. We all have to make that transition of becoming the businessman and not the electrician's that we are.
Don't get discouraged, keep coming back and us guys will keeping helping each other on here. Its a big circle and everybody can learn something from somebody, Welcome to the forum:smile:

 

[Mule]

Just to get you're Lic down here it will cost you around $5000.00. You have to show that you're worth X amount of money, which most pple have to get a loan for that. With all that the guys said on over head, Worker's comp, Liability insurance at least a minimun of $1,000,000,

You said that you are an electrician at heart and not a business man, well I guarantee thats how most of us started out, my self as well. We all have to make that transition of becoming the businessman and not the electrician's that we are.

Don't get discouraged, keep coming back and us guys will keeping helping each other on here. Its a big circle and everybody can learn something from somebody, Welcome to the forum:smile:

Thanks very much.....well here if you have documented 8000 hours you can take a block journeyman test, and another 4000 you can take a contractor test. and the licenses is not $5000 its $300 and for WC...up to five family members are exempt ...liability requirements are only 300k although we carry more than that. So.. maybe its a eye opener for some that all states and locations are not the same...and maybe I dont have to make that transition that your talking about, as I seem to be doing fine other than the issue on my original string

 

[jmsbrush]

Thanks very much.....well here if you have documented 8000 hours you can take a block journeyman test, and another 4000 you can take a contractor test. and the licenses is not $5000 its $300 and for WC...up to five family members are exempt ...liability requirements are only 300k although we carry more than that. So.. maybe its a eye opener for some that all states and locations are not the same...and maybe I dont have to make that transition that your talking about, as I seem to be doing fine other than the issue on my original string

My cousin is a GC in Ok. He wants me to get my EC there. I know whats required there. Some states don't require anything from what I understand.
Now thats really crazy. We can have to up to 3 to be exempt, thats neither here or there.
What if someone gets hurt?? Then you are in real trouble.
Another thing that I learned in the real world was that allot of the jobs out there require that you Have WC, that being exempt is not good enough.
Mule in you're OP, How is the economy doing there?
Here in Fl its not so good.

 

[growler]

As earliier stated.....I tried $75, $85, $95 on these SMALL jobs and thhe problem was the size of job (not enough task to be efficient)......I never stated what I charge on larger jobs. Did you ever think that maybe I dont need the money all that much, and I might be trying to help my SIL? Most of the contractors around here are getting $100 for journeyman and appprentice and seem to do fine, but they dont have two people on small jobs.

Mule I don't wish to offend you ( you seen like a nice enough person) but I think you are getting small jobs and service calls confused. You say that you need to be doing larger jobs and that probably true for the way you wish to run your business.

You can't do service calls the same way that you would do small jobs and make any money. There are just not enough billable hours in service calls to allow for the lower rate. If you bill over 4 hours a day doing service calls you are doing good but you still need to come up with the same money as the contractors doing small jobs and billing for 8 hours.

Small jobs are things like total rewires, kitchen remodels, room additions, service upgrades and even small houses or tenant spaces. Service call are when a customer needs a problem repaired, fixture replaced or fan installed. The rates for service calls are normally at least twice the rate for any type of residential construction project, this is because there will not be 8 billable hours in a day. If it cost the customer $100 ea. to change out light fixtures that's just what it cost, if they want 20 fixtures changed out and there is a flexable schedule then the price can go down.

Service calls are just not an efficient use of man power ( to much travel and down time) and there is nothing that can be done about it. They are convenient for the customer and the customer ends up paying for it. The value of a service call is in meeting the customer's schedule and solving the problem or doing the installed at a time convenient for the customer. You can't calculate this value like you would a construction rate for installing a light fixture. If you have 2 hours invested to do 15 minutes of work then you must be paid for the 2 hours.

You should have two different rates, one to use for small jobs and another for service calls. People will not pay $200 and hour to rewire a house but they will pay $200 for a 30 minute service call if the problem is solved when and how you agreed .

 

[220/221]

Seriously, how many people can sell their EC business?

Heh heh.

If you are a one man operation there is not much value. If you develop a "real" business that will prosper on it's own, you have a money making machine with real value. The more efficiently it runs, the more its produces and the more it's worth.

 

[Mule]

Heh heh.

If you are a one man operation there is not much value. If you develop a "real" business that will prosper on it's own, you have a money making machine with real value. The more efficiently it runs, the more its produces and the more it's worth.

Thanks but,.....Here we go AGAIN, (The last two replies) with this "Real World" and "Real Business" Come on guys give it up... I DONT want a money making machine....I earn it myself....my love is the trade and the customer, not the money...In my books if I take care of those two the money will be there, always has, and always will be. I've Never drawn a penny of WC or Un-employmnet.....and excuse me...."Not much value in a one man operation" ??

 

[Mule]

Mule I don't wish to offend you ( you seen like a nice enough person) but I think you are getting small jobs and service calls confused. You say that you need to be doing larger jobs and that probably true for the way you wish to run your business.

You can't do service calls the same way that you would do small jobs and make any money. There are just not enough billable hours in service calls to allow for the lower rate. If you bill over 4 hours a day doing service calls you are doing good but you still need to come up with the same money as the contractors doing small jobs and billing for 8 hours.

Small jobs are things like total rewires, kitchen remodels, room additions, service upgrades and even small houses or tenant spaces. Service call are when a customer needs a problem repaired, fixture replaced or fan installed. The rates for service calls are normally at least twice the rate for any type of residential construction project, this is because there will not be 8 billable hours in a day. If it cost the customer $100 ea. to change out light fixtures that's just what it cost, if they want 20 fixtures changed out and there is a flexable schedule then the price can go down.

Service calls are just not an efficient use of man power ( to much travel and down time) and there is nothing that can be done about it. They are convenient for the customer and the customer ends up paying for it. The value of a service call is in meeting the customer's schedule and solving the problem or doing the installed at a time convenient for the customer. You can't calculate this value like you would a construction rate for installing a light fixture. If you have 2 hours invested to do 15 minutes of work then you must be paid for the 2 hours.

You should have two different rates, one to use for small jobs and another for service calls. People will not pay $200 and hour to rewire a house but they will pay $200 for a 30 minute service call if the problem is solved when and how you agreed .

Yes you are offending me..................

I use what I call small jobs 3-6 hours and finish out the day with 1 or 2 service calls.....why? because I dont want to work 8 hrs...I only want to work or bill 5-6..I'm primarily a service contractor not construction.

Maybe Im not as consfused as you think? But thanks for the encouragement

If I charged a customer $200 for 30 minutes around here, it would be all over town. Thats your market .............

So now you can tell me what's wrong with that...I can smell it coming

 

[peter d]

So now you can tell me what's wrong with that...I can smell it coming

Growler and others already told you what's wrong with it. It's not coming...it's here already.