cutting in recessed lights without access above how do you?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
All i know is if it's plaster I'm upping my price for sure! Last week I had a job installing only 4 of 6 inch cans in plaster and wood lathe and I'm sick as a dog right now with congestion feel like I have pneumonia:( It was a 100+ year old home and the plaster crumbled like a coffee cake and it was horse hair. I didn't have a dust mask with me and was too lazy to run out buy one thinking oh it's only 4 cans. The amount of dust that came out from just those 4 holes could fill up a nice size box.

From now on if it's plaster the price is double or im not doing it.

Don't forget your N100 mask and HEPA vacuum for the lead dust. If any insulation come out of the holes it probably also contained asbestos.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Don't forget your N100 mask and HEPA vacuum for the lead dust. If any insulation come out of the holes it probably also contained asbestos.

I don't do enough jobs that inlvove me disturbing material to invest in a $500 HEPA vac. No insulation and it was horse hair plaster they wouldn't use both asbestos and horse hair in the plaster the horse hair is the binder.

Well i guess i might be heading to an early grave then with what i breathed in:ashamed:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't do enough jobs that inlvove me disturbing material to invest in a $500 HEPA vac. No insulation and it was horse hair plaster they wouldn't use both asbestos and horse hair in the plaster the horse hair is the binder.

Well i guess i might be heading to an early grave then with what i breathed in:ashamed:

If you already have a shop vac all you need is a $30-40 HEPA filter to put in it.

Was it horse hair or pigs hair? Not that it matters much, but I bet pigs hair was more readily available.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
If you already have a shop vac all you need is a $30-40 HEPA filter to put in it.

Was it horse hair or pigs hair? Not that it matters much, but I bet pigs hair was more readily available.

I'm not a pro at determining the type of hair but looks like horse hair. I just read that the whole vacuum has to be certified HEPA or you can be fined up to $32,000. A shop vac is not certified.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I'm not a pro at determining the type of hair but looks like horse hair. I just read that the whole vacuum has to be certified HEPA or you can be fined up to $32,000. A shop vac is not certified.

Good reason to stay out of that kind of work - a lot of houses I have been in where this could be a problem are only worth $32,000 or so and they don't want to pay a dime for anything electrical if they don't have to.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Good reason to stay out of that kind of work - a lot of houses I have been in where this could be a problem are only worth $32,000 or so and they don't want to pay a dime for anything electrical if they don't have to.

A house worth $32k ? Where I'm at you won't find a house less then $100k only in the city of Philly about an hour from me will you find homes worth 32k and less and they are crack houses that i wouldn't work in anyway.

Your in Nebraska in the boon docks though so that 32k is probably a 3 bedroom house.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A house worth $32k ? Where I'm at you won't find a house less then $100k only in the city of Philly about an hour from me will you find homes worth 32k and less and they are crack houses that i wouldn't work in anyway.

Your in Nebraska in the boon docks though so that 32k is probably a 3 bedroom house.

The house might cost more than that to build but what it is worth is only what someone will pay for it.

I really don't know the current selling price of some of the older homes lately but if it is decent at all it is probably worth at least 50K. There are some communities though where they are only worth 32 at most and are likely to have meth labs inside.

You ever listen to Larry the Cable Guy or Jeff Foxworthy? Some of their redneck type jokes are not jokes but are reality in these communities.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
The house might cost more than that to build but what it is worth is only what someone will pay for it.

I really don't know the current selling price of some of the older homes lately but if it is decent at all it is probably worth at least 50K. There are some communities though where they are only worth 32 at most and are likely to have meth labs inside.

You ever listen to Larry the Cable Guy or Jeff Foxworthy? Some of their redneck type jokes are not jokes but are reality in these communities.
yeah I've run in to people that don't realize that LCG and Jeff are comedians.
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
All i know is if it's plaster I'm upping my price for sure! Last week I had a job installing only 4 of 6 inch cans in plaster and wood lathe and I'm sick as a dog right now with congestion feel like I have pneumonia:( It was a 100+ year old home and the plaster crumbled like a coffee cake and it was horse hair. I didn't have a dust mask with me and was too lazy to run out buy one thinking oh it's only 4 cans. The amount of dust that came out from just those 4 holes could fill up a nice size box.

From now on if it's plaster the price is double or im not doing it.

What exactly are you using to cut your recessed lights in? For lathe/plaster I use a Milwaukee carbide grit holesaw with a Rack-a-Tier dust bowl. Dust is nearly non-existent as the bowl catches the vast majority. For drywall I use a Lightolier Lytecaster Hole Saw Cutter (much nicer setup, but the cutting edges are only about 3/4" long).


If you already have a shop vac all you need is a $30-40 HEPA filter to put in it.

Was it horse hair or pigs hair? Not that it matters much, but I bet pigs hair was more readily available.

New guidelines require that in order to meet lead safe removal practices, the HEPA filter must be used in a TRUE HEPA sealed canister vacuum. Also, remember the 6 square feet rule, I'm assuming we/our companies are all certified by now (if you disturb less than 6 square feet, the Lead Safe EPA guidelines don't apply...until they remove this rule).
 
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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Also, remember the 6 square feet rule, I'm assuming we/our companies are all certified by now (if you disturb less than 6 square feet, the Lead Safe EPA guidelines don't apply...until they remove this rule).


On the 6' rule.

If you remove less than 6' square you're ok.

Lets say you remove less than 6' in day one, then less than 6' in day two.................or
Lets say you remove less than 6' in week one, then less than 6' in week two.............or
Lets say you remove less than 6' in month one, then less than 6' in month two.........or
Lets say you remove less than 6' in year one, then less than 6' in year two................or
Lets say you remove less than 6' in decade one, then less than 6' in decade two........or...........................???

Lets say you remove less than 6' in house one, can you remove less than 6' in the next door neighbors house.

Apt. 1 less than 6', Apt 2 on same floor less than 6', Apt 3 different floor less than 6'?

If you removed less than 6', can I then remove less than 6'.

If Jack helped you off the horse, would you help Jack off the horse?


I gotta get a life, and do a google search, or look into a certifying class.

:D
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
A google search won't help you with the fines :D .

Go take an EPA cert course. I'm actually surprised New Jersey doesn't list this as a requirement for obtaining and holding an electrical license.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A google search won't help you with the fines :D .

Go take an EPA cert course. I'm actually surprised New Jersey doesn't list this as a requirement for obtaining and holding an electrical license.

Why should you be required to be certified if you never work in places that require certification. This is not a requirement to be able to do electrical - it is a situation that you can run into if you do electrical.

I do work in a food processing plant and they have some rules there I never run into anywhere else. Do I need to wear a hair net or use foot baths when I am working in somebodys house? Maybe they should require knowledge of food product safety requirements for electrical licensing too.

Do you need to be certified if you are disturbing less than 6 sq ft? Or is it just the fact you don't need to be too picky if disturbing less than that? I have never been certified to recent standards, I have been certified in past for what government funded projects once required, my understanding is that certification is not valid anymore. I seldom get involved in projects where I will be disturbing more than 6 square feet. Usually just cut in a switch or receptacle here and there.

What if a general contractor guts a place then I come in to wire it? Am I a part of disturbing more than 6 square feet? I do run into that sometimes - and that could be a problem if I am to be certified. Whenever I am in that situation nobody else there is taking any extra precaution to keep lead dust down so any effort from me would be pointless.
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
Why should you be required to be certified if you never work in places that require certification. This is not a requirement to be able to do electrical - it is a situation that you can run into if you do electrical.

In all fairness to my quote, I am talking specifically about New Jersey. I'm surprised that they don't require you to own a miniature elephant on top of whatever other qualifications are deemed necessary.

I do work in a food processing plant and they have some rules there I never run into anywhere else. Do I need to wear a hair net or use foot baths when I am working in somebodys house? Maybe they should require knowledge of food product safety requirements for electrical licensing too.

We were discussing cutting in recessed lighting in lathe and plaster ceilings, a good indicator that you might be working in a lead environment.

Do you need to be certified if you are disturbing less than 6 sq ft?

If you are working in the possible environment, it is strongly encouraged by the EPA. If it is a high possibility, and in consideration to this thread, it is a high possibility that you might exceed 6 sq ft based on how a lighting project is done by some, why would you not get lead certification? But to specifically address the question, no.

What if a general contractor guts a place then I come in to wire it? Am I a part of disturbing more than 6 square feet? I do run into that sometimes - and that could be a problem if I am to be certified. Whenever I am in that situation nobody else there is taking any extra precaution to keep lead dust down so any effort from me would be pointless.

If the general contractor guts everything in the place and it is tested negative for lead after the cleanup procedure, you are no longer in the lead environment and do not need to follow the guidelines. One of our contractors recently started doing this, as our (as well as HVAC) costs to them skyrocket do to time restraints while working in these areas.

If the general contractor is demoing while you are working there, you are certainly required to have a lead certification and individual employee certification (two different certs, a company cert, and once that is issued, an individual can train those in the company).

If a general contractor allows work on site, by a non-certified subcontractor, BOTH are held responsible for fines. All employees working in the lead environment have to be trained as well.

We don't have to like RRP, but just as we don't have to like every code in the NEC, it is our responsibility to follow.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Sorry to have hijacked the thread, but at same time the change of topic is still related to cutting in recessed lights unless you are doing so in fairly new constructed buildings.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
What exactly are you using to cut your recessed lights in?

For plaster and wood lathe I do it without power tools. In this case the plaster was so brittle if a hole saw bit would hang up in the slightest half the cieling would fall down. So i scored around the plaster with my utility knife and chipped out the plaster leaving the wood lathe. Then i take a drill with a 1" paddle bit and drill the perimeter of the lathe and snip it out with my dikes. Takes extra time but the holes were very good and clean and no cracks in the cieling. In my opinion if you use power tools on very brittle plaster your pressing your luck.

The room was being renovated and only the plywood floor was down so the owner said don't worry about making a mess so i did:lol:
 
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