enclosed service mast

[iwire]

In the interest of full disclosure.

I was driving through an area in MA looking for someplace to grab some lunch, I spoted a sefood place and had to make a U-turn to get back to it. Well I pulled into a parking space and what do I see.......................

I think we can all agree this happened without electrical inspections and future ECs can only hope there are no LBs under those meter enclosures. :grin:

 

[acrwc10]

So did you eat there, or were you afraid the place would burn down ? :grin:

 

[iwire]

So did you eat there, or were you afraid the place would burn down ? :grin:

I was going to run away in fear but I remembered I had my PPE in the truck so I suited up and went in. :grin:

 

[roger]

So if you have rats in the space in the stud bays you would not worry about it because they are outside the home?:grin:

I think that's exactly what he's saying. :grin:

I think it is down right comical you that you want us to believe a conduit inside the walls is outside the building,:grin:

That's only because he doesn't think article 220 is part of the conversation.


Roger

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Sorry you feel that way Bob but I am surrounded by literally millions of installations that totally disagree with your position, in one of the most restrictive code enforcement jurisdictions in the country so regardless of what you (or I for that matter) feel about this issue is is a permitted practice and NO one has been able to produce the proper language in the Code to make all of those millions of installs Code violations.

As you have told others (and as you have told me in the past in fact) if the discussion bothers you that much then don't bother reading it anymore. :roll:

Others in this thread have also disagreed with your position and I don't see you questioning their common sense. :roll:

Like I said before this will be another topic that you and I can agree to disagree on. I can live with that.

Since CA is plagued with mudslides and is constantly falling into the ocean and other places they are hoping the risers "INSIDE" the building will act as an anchor point to hold things in place.

 

[mxslick]

Funny you mentioned that...

Funny you mentioned that...

Since CA is plagued with mudslides and is constantly falling into the ocean and other places they are hoping the risers "INSIDE" the building will act as an anchor point to hold things in place.

LOL Years ago, when I replaced my Zinsco service with a new 200amp Murray, (the one I talked about in past threads re inspector battles and heavy service drops) the one thing both the inspector and the poco crew noticed is that the extensive support for my riser (which was exterior on this upgrade) would make that corner of the house remain standing in the event of a major earthquake.

 

[jetlag]

recessed meter base

recessed meter base

Im not sure if I read it in the NEC or in some power co spec but it stated the meter base could not be recessed this way . A lot of these were done this way on older houses that were later brick venered. IN that case no one said any thing unless a new service was installed later

 

[mxslick]

In the interest of full disclosure.

I was driving through an area in MA looking for someplace to grab some lunch, I spoted a sefood place and had to make a U-turn to get back to it. Well I pulled into a parking space and what do I see.......................

I think we can all agree this happened without electrical inspections and future ECs can only hope there are no LBs under those meter enclosures. :grin:

I like the italics on "think"..because you knew I'd be the first one to disagree..but only a call to your AHJ to check on permits would give the answer.

The nature of the construction is rather odd though....it looks almost like it was a "shell" or "add-on" wall rather than actual structure.

And also in the interest of disclosure, I have a hunch you are right that there will be LB's under those enclosures.

 

[mxslick]

Im not sure if I read it in the NEC or in some power co spec but it stated the meter base could not be recessed this way . A lot of these were done this way on older houses that were later brick venered. IN that case no one said any thing unless a new service was installed later

If the original install was not enclosed and the brick veneer was added later I would agree 100% that it was not allowed. Some power company specs do indeed require surface mounting of risers/meters and some allow in wall. Thus the debate in this thread.

 

[mxslick]

Good definition. I vote Slick for code change of the day.

Thank you John. Perhaps I finally have a proposal to submit.

So if you have rats in the space in the stud bays you would not worry about it because they are outside the home?:grin:

Yep since they aren't INSIDE my living space. :grin: My cat wouldn't allow them in anyways.

Clearly a conduit inside the stud bay is inside.

Yes, inside the bay but not inside the living spaces.

Would the conduit need WP fittings inside the wall? no .... because it is inside.

Of course WP fittings aren't needed because the wall would be a dry location according to the NEC..but still not inside the living spaces.

I think it is down right comical you that you want us to believe a conduit inside the walls is outside the building,:grin:

According to how square footages are computed for purposes of taxation, realty listings and so forth, yes it is outside the building. :grin:

Stick with the fact the AHJ has some leeway about how far from the point of entrance and at least that would make sense.

I have never disputed that, I just take issue with the position that there is a specific Code prohibition on service conductors inside. Obviously if the AHJ has some latitude there cannot be such a prohibition.

 

[readydave8]

Thank you John. to how square footages are computed for purposes of taxation, realty listings and so forth, yes it is outside the building. :grin:

I thought I'd been noticing that the realtors and tax assessors were using outside dimensions. Just like a 14x70 mobile home is 13'4"x64' living space.

 

[iwire]

Yep since they aren't INSIDE my living space.

Now you are just plain fibbing, I am sure you would be botherd with rodents in the walls.

Yes, inside the bay but not inside the living spaces.

Sorry they forgot to use the term 'living space' in my version of 230.70(A)(1).

Of course WP fittings aren't needed because the wall would be a dry location according to the NEC..but still not inside the living spaces.

Where did you find the term 'living space' in regards to 230.7(A)(1)?

According to how square footages are computed for purposes of taxation, realty listings and so forth, yes it is outside the building.

You want to ignore a definition found in NEC Article 220 'because you say that has nothing to do with it' but you do want to use info from the tax collector?

That is what we in the business call a long stretch.

Obviously if the AHJ has some latitude there cannot be such a prohibition.

And obviously there is if the AHJ can limit it. If they could not limit it then there would be no prohibition.

 

[mivey]

I thought I'd been noticing that the realtors and tax assessors were using outside dimensions.

Most do. Some do not and use the term "heated space" or some such term.

 

[cowboyjwc]

They must allow risers in the wall in other places besides CA other wise they wouldn't make flush mount panels.

 

[iwire]

They must allow risers in the wall in other places besides CA other wise they wouldn't make flush mount panels.

I know an inspector did not just say that because an item is made it must be OK.:grin:

I can buy unlisted FMC from my local supply house, I cannot use it for any NEC application but they do stock it.

There is also 230.6, I can run service conductors anywhere as long as I follow 230.6.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I know an inspector did not just say that because an item is made it must be OK.:grin:

I can buy unlisted FMC from my local supply house, I cannot use it for any NEC application but they do stock it.

There is also 230.6, I can run service conductors anywhere as long as I follow 230.6.

No, they're listed panels. You can always tell when we have a reigonal issue. I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a surface mount panel. And you will never, ever see SER cable run out here, and a meter seperate from the panel in other than commercial?. Who are you people?

 

[readydave8]

Most do. Some do not and use the term "heated space" or some such term.

Would some realtors measure inside dimensions to know what square feet to advertise? Would some tax assesors measure inside dimensions to know how to value the structure? Or would the term "heated space" be used to differentiate "living space" from porches, unfinished basements, etc?

 

[iwire]

No, they're listed panels.

I understand that.

My point was just that the fact an item is manufactured has little to nothing to do with if the NEC allows it's use for all applications.

You can always tell when we have a reigonal issue.

I agree and have never said CA does not allow this, I have simply said I do not believe that the NEC does. :grin:

I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a surface mount panel. And you will never, ever see SER cable run out here, and a meter seperate from the panel in other than commercial?. Who are you people?

Aliens from another planet. :grin:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I will agree with all that.

 

[curt swartz]

I stated a while back that our CA method of installing service conductors in the wall seems to be in violation of the NEC. What I don't see is how installing 4' of service conductors in the wall is any more of a violation that installing several feet of SE cable in a basement. In my 27+ years in the trade I have never seen a home damaged from these in-wall service conductors. I personally think having service conductors in rigid conduit closed up in a stud space is probably safer that exposed SE cable in a basement.