stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
geezer said:
Depends on if its a IBC (individual branch circuit) or a branch circuit suppling two or more outlets.
For all you "20 ampers"
- Thread starter bikeindy
- Start date
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Depends on if its a IBC (individual branch circuit) or a branch circuit suppling two or more outlets.
ItsHot
Senior Member
- Location
- A little piece of heaven!
new meaning!
new meaning!
new meaning!
The ones running now will give new meaning to "idiots", and over shadow all the clowns from the past!Minuteman said:
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
I'm not a #14 hater or #12 lover. I really don't care. However, local code does. I have made some comments relative to how we install only #12 in residential - in most communities here.
My arguments about the #12 are not in defence of #12 being superior to #14, only that I can install #12 in a typical 1500 - 3000 ft/2 home for about the same costs as one can using both #14 & #12.
As far as backstabbing goes. I didn't like it when devices had #12 holes. I don't like it now.
My arguments about the #12 are not in defence of #12 being superior to #14, only that I can install #12 in a typical 1500 - 3000 ft/2 home for about the same costs as one can using both #14 & #12.
As far as backstabbing goes. I didn't like it when devices had #12 holes. I don't like it now.
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
Minuteman said:
Ok so I agree that the cost for mateials will be close to the same. here is how I see the outcome if you are to keep material cost the same.
A home has lets say 60 general purpose receptacles and a guy running #14 will use 6 circuits to supply them. To keep the cost the same in #12 you will have to use lets say 4 circuits for the same 60 receptacles. who has supplied the homeowner with more power?
the guy who ran 6 15 Amp receptacles supplied 90 Amps of power the guy who ran #12 supplied 80 Amps of power. I don't care about backstab or not you can wrap #14 wire it doesn't need to be stabbed.
This has been my point and if you really sit down and draw it out you can supply a homeowner with a better design and more power for the same price if you use #14 wire. It is MHO that people who live in areas that don't allow #14 to be run, need to step up and get it changed.
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Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
mivey said:
do you want me to do all the math for you? I'm trying to keep it simple. but I will continue. Lets say that running the 4 homeruns and 60 receptacles used 1000' of #12. thats $276.00 today here in Indy. so it is the same in wire for the 60 receptacles and 4 home runs in #14 give or take a few feet thats $168.00 I think the cost of 2 more breakers, extra wire needed for the 2 extra home home runs, labor for two more home runs + hookup, more panel space might be $108.00 but not likely. Panel space? give me a break a 30/40 panel is $125 a 40/40 is $132.50 ou save by not buying tandems with the 40/40 so you more than make up the $7.50. But you will save on labor when you run the #14 due to the difference in difficulty of handling it.
Don't you get it yet I provided more power at less cost or even the same cost but I PROVIDED MORE POWER with #14.
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
Minuteman said:
That was for the whole house my example is just the general purpose receptacles. If you want to get into lights I win in the power department there as well, But it is lighting do you need more power?
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Total for the 14/12 = 285. Total for the 12 only = 260. But, that's okay, should the HO need MORE POWER... I would be glad to add additional #12 - for a respectable price. :grin:bikeindy said:
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
BTW I only put a max of 8 rec on a ckt 10 max if it saves a hr but 8 saves callbacks and irritated customers
bikeindy
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis IN
Minuteman said:
You see my point then, add your extra circuit and still fall 5 amps short. so for the ones who are #12 lovers and not forced to do it like you they have no arguement.:grin:
What's "better" aside.. You can make up and trim #14 faster. Using stab back receps and switches you can cut serious time off a install as compared to using #12. Box fill allows you more #14 in the same box meaning you don't have to upsize and spend more on boxes. For properly designed systems I think #14 works just fine.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
You guys just dont get it 12 runs cooler and has much more ampacity for a negligable price. Never have to worry about it pushing designs to the max is what you are preaching look at the space shuttle. One bad O ring and Kaboom I always use deep boxes anyway. Why do you feel the need to convert us 12 lovers anyway?? I think we should call Dr Phil. Let go of your anger. BTW a good commercial guy will install 12 just as fast as 14. Book on recepticle installations is .2 hrs which is 12 min give ME a break if I cant install and trim a rec in 12 min I will just burn my license.wireman71 said:
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mivey
Senior Member
Yes please. I'm feeling lazy.:grin: Would you guess an extra 1.5-1.75 labor hours for the extra runs & hook-up? I'm guessing the panel space is worth 40 feet of #14? Panel space is like real estate, it has value. Let the 2 AFCI's be around $30 each. Guess an extra 50 feet of #14 at say another $9.50. That comes out to about 40% more than what you calculatedbikeindy said:
I'll give you $15 for that. It's not that big of a difference (0.004 labor hours per LF).bikeindy said:
It looks like more power at more cost to me ($135 more). The #12 guy can also handle larger single loads.bikeindy said:
[edit: typo]
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Are we talking application or preference?
Are we talking application or preference?
Howdy Folks!
Seems to me that a lot of the talk seems to personal preference rather than perhaps application. #14 is there for a reason. I believe the whole idea (of branch circuits really) is to limit the number of openings (or load) on a circuit so that when the breaker trips the whole house doesn't go out. Or, when you have to service an outlet or switch, the whole house doesn't have to be turned off.
I'm sure a lot of you, like myself, walk through and talk through an electrical job with your customer. Because you want to make a proper and adequate application of wiring for their needs.
Side note: People keep mentioning the extra labor to pull A home run. Don't y'all pull more than one at a time.
That's my two cents. I'll give you change is that's too much:roll:
Are we talking application or preference?
Howdy Folks!
Seems to me that a lot of the talk seems to personal preference rather than perhaps application. #14 is there for a reason. I believe the whole idea (of branch circuits really) is to limit the number of openings (or load) on a circuit so that when the breaker trips the whole house doesn't go out. Or, when you have to service an outlet or switch, the whole house doesn't have to be turned off.
I'm sure a lot of you, like myself, walk through and talk through an electrical job with your customer. Because you want to make a proper and adequate application of wiring for their needs.
Side note: People keep mentioning the extra labor to pull A home run. Don't y'all pull more than one at a time.
That's my two cents. I'll give you change is that's too much:roll:
mivey
Senior Member
HowdyChamuit said:
I see this as pretty much a non-issue in a residential setting. Also, I would never lay things out so "the whole house goes out"Chamuit said:
I'm not going to admit that because it would not help my argument:grin:Chamuit said:
[edit: I've tried the new two-bladed screwdriver that allows me to hook up two breakers at once but I just can't figure it out:grin:]
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hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Chamuit said:
The whole idea is to not have problems. Using #12 (IMO) reduces the chances of problems.
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