For all you "20 ampers"

[hardworkingstiff]

Ok so I agree that the cost for mateials will be close to the same. here is how I see the outcome if you are to keep material cost the same.

A home has lets say 60 general purpose receptacles and a guy running #14 will use 6 circuits to supply them. To keep the cost the same in #12 you will have to use lets say 4 circuits for the same 60 receptacles. who has supplied the homeowner with more power?

the guy who ran 6 15 Amp receptacles supplied 90 Amps of power the guy who ran #12 supplied 80 Amps of power. I don't care about backstab or not you can wrap #14 wire it doesn't need to be stabbed.

This has been my point and if you really sit down and draw it out you can supply a homeowner with a better design and more power for the same price if you use #14 wire. It is MHO that people who live in areas that don't allow #14 to be run, need to step up and get it changed.

I thought we all agreed the "whole" house is lightly loaded and there are just a few receptacles that get the majority of the loads. The point I've made (and still believe) is that I would rather have fewer circuits that could handle 33% more current (in each circuit).

 

[hardworkingstiff]

last point

last point

I see nothing wrong in running 14 circuits. I just believe having 12 circuits for receptacles gives you better power for concentrated loads.

I would still use 14 for lighting circuits. Lighting circuits are mulitiple light loads as compared to receptacles being more likely to have a few heavier loads.

 

[electricmanscott]

You guys just dont get it 12 runs cooler and has much more ampacity for a negligable price. Never have to worry about it pushing designs to the max is what you are preaching look at the space shuttle. One bad O ring and Kaboom I always use deep boxes anyway. Why do you feel the need to convert us 12 lovers anyway?? I think we should call Dr Phil. Let go of your anger. BTW a good commercial guy will install 12 just as fast as 14. Book on recepticle installations is .2 hrs which is 12 min give ME a break if I cant install and trim a rec in 12 min I will just burn my license.

Yeah, we don't get it. Why do you hacks use #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles .

There have been exactly ZERO convincing arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.

 

[emahler]

Yeah, we don't get it. Why do you hacks us #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles .

There have been exactly ZERO concinving arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.

do you upsize your neutral? or are you just a more expensive hack?

 

[brantmacga]

And, in the example given in posts 52 & 56 you will see that there was a 4 circuit difference between using 14 & 12, verses 12 only.

not so fast!!!!!!!!!

i clearly stated in a reply to you that the use of 14awg DID NOT result in my installation having more circuits than your 12awg; the reason for the extra circuits was personal preference. an example, you put the dining/nook receps on a kitchen counter sabc where as i put them on their own; and i split bedroom lighting/smokes off on their own circuit so if the receps trip, you still have light. again, not required, but just one more way i'm better than you.

seriously though, that was such a hildabeast move to twist the facts like that.

 

[Minuteman]

Yeah, we don't get it. Why do you hacks us #12 anyway?

Hi, my name is Michael, and I'm a hack. It has been 21 years since I used #14, and I have a twenty year #14 sobriety coin.

Hi Michael, keep coming back.

:roll:

 

[wirebender]

Hi, my name is Michael, and I'm a hack. It has been 21 years since I used #14, and I have a twenty year #14 sobriety coin.

Hi Michael, keep coming back.

:roll:

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?

 

[Minuteman]

not so fast!!!!!!!!!

i clearly stated in a reply to you that the use of 14awg DID NOT result in my installation having more circuits than your 12awg; the reason for the extra circuits was personal preference. an example, you put the dining/nook receps on a kitchen counter sabc where as i put them on their own;

Okay, I will give you that.

and i split bedroom lighting/smokes off on their own circuit so if the receps trip, you still have light. again, not required,

That's because, 2 beds on one 15amp circuit are more likely to trip than on a 20.

but just one more way i'm better than you.

Son, you gotta a lot a water to carry before you get even CLOSE to being as good as me.

seriously though, that was such a hildabeast move to twist the facts like that.

:wink:

 

[Rewire]

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?

Having coffee with Dr Bob

 

[Minuteman]

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?

Tony, we are supposed to be "anonymous", and I'm not supposed to mention that I have seen you at the meetings.

 

[cschmid]

It has been since for ever since I have used #14 so can I have some phone numbers so when I feel the need to run #14 I can call and get help..I don't want to be weak and stumble..I hate to be a #14 aholic again..It has been many years since I have used #14 please don't let me stumble and fall..:grin:

Lets get real man..we use what we need to when we need to..If I am doing light industrial all #12, residential receptacles are #12 and lights #14..any where some one who is not qualified is going to have the ability to work on it I make them #12..SO hack away man hack away with your low ball #14 as our power consumption increases and our demand grows let minimum everything..hack away..:grin:

Wow hope that does not get the natives restless..:grin:

 

[tryinghard]

A 15A circuit wired correctly in 14 is just great! Hands feel better at the end of the day, wire fill is simpler, finish walls are less impacted from wire fill issues, cost is less, and within it's load capacity there's nothing unsafe about it. Using the right product for a particular application does not have to be exaggerated and bigger is not better if ones emphasis is on correct application.

 

[mivey]

...Hands feel better at the end of the day...

I've done both, never paid much attention to any difference.

...finish walls are less impacted from wire fill issues...

What? Our walls are not that small where I come from. Maybe in Lilliput and Blefuscu it would matter...

...does not have to be exaggerated and bigger is not better...

How else can we cook up something to debate?:grin:

 

[tryinghard]

I've done both, never paid much attention to any difference.What? Our walls are not that small where I come from...

How about 3 or 4 gang switch box with deco switches (bonded -grounded-of course); if you have installed these you'll know what I'm talking about regarding marking or damaging a finish wall.
How many #12's will you install in a 3 gang switch box with deco switches?

 

[mivey]

How about 3 or 4 gang switch box with deco switches (bonded -grounded-of course); if you have installed these you'll know what I'm talking about regarding marking or damaging a finish wall.
How many #12's will you install in a 3 gang switch box with deco switches?

"How many #12's": As many as I need? I've installed 6 and 8 gang switches with #12. If the box is the right size, I dont have any problem. I'm not following your train of thought here.

deco? How are the art deco switches a problem? If you talking about the old stacked despar switches-I never had a problem. If you are talking about decora switches-never had problems with them either.

While I have scuffed a wall every now and then, I try to be careful. I don't see what the wire size has to do with that.

 

[quogueelectric]

Yeah, we don't get it. Why do you hacks us #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles .

There have been exactly ZERO concinving arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.

Please DR Phil Intervention Please I'm begging you fix these 12 haters.

 

[480sparky]

Technically, the size of the decive has no bearing on box fill, only the presence of it.

But of course, some devices take up more space than others. GFIs and dimmers top the list.

 

[mivey]

...GFIs and dimmers top the list.

I would agree about these two animals. It can get tight when adding to an old, under-sized box. I have changed out many old boxes just for that reason.

 

[mivey]

Please DR Phil Intervention Please I'm begging you fix these 12 haters.

Tell me about it. I just thought of another reason I like #12 better. It can take more mechanical abuse than #14.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Don't you get it yet I provided more power at less cost or even the same cost but I PROVIDED MORE POWER with #14.

I'm gonna throw this in...

An even better argument than providing more power, is circuit diversity. I'd hold a safer installation argument to a higher regard than actual power provided.

I'd rather each room have 2 different 15a circuits serving receptacles. Smaller circuits but greater quantity make this easier.

4 15a circuits - 60 a

Ct 1 - 1/2 of livingroom, 1/2 of bedroom1
Ct 2 - 1/2 of bedroom 1 & 1/2 of bedroom 2
Ct 3 - 1/2 of bedroom 2 & 1/2 of bedroom 3
Ct 4 - 1/2 of bedroom 3 & 1/2 of livingroom

3 20a circuits - 60a

Ct 1 - Entire livingroom & 1/2 BR 1
Ct 2 - 1/2 BR 1 & Entire BR 2
Ct 3 - Entrie BR 3