junction box in attic-inspector question

[jwelectric]

I know that some of you are trying everything possible to justify your belief that moving the insulation to expose a junction box does not constitute a code violation but to start relating to the opening of a door or access panel to expose a box to the moving of insulation is funny.

To compare the installation of a circuit or the extension of one to the accessing a box that is already installed is even funnier. To install a circuit or to extend a circuit I can even remove sheetrock.

The verbiage found in section 314.29 is very clear??. shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building? Of course it is. It if the finish of the attic.

As many building inspectors who frequent this site can tell you that insulation in the attic has to meet a standard. When some lonely heart electrician starts digging around in the insulation looking for a junction box he has disturbed the rating of the insulation therefore violating the building code. Yes I know I would win before any states board in saying an electrical box buried in insulation is a violation of the electrical code section 314.29

 

[One-eyed Jack]

No, drywall is 'building finish' insulation is not.



NFPAs own manual of style and logic says 'workmanlike' is unenforceable. And IMO inspectors that use that section are just grasping at straws to enforce their personal wishes.



And there you admit it, 'NOT IN MY TOWN' well it is not your town town or jurisdiction, it is the jurisdiction you where chosen to enforce the code in, you where not hired to make up your own requirements.

Looks like some ECs in your area need to grow some balls and hold you to the rules as written,





Cite a code section or accept it, no third option.

See post 59. Those rules are written. Not by me,but adopted by the State of NC. This testosterone was provided by NC. I will accept your terminology ref. jurisdiction. That being said I am the one the public and management points the finger at for accountability. If I am accountable I make the decision based on the tech codes that I must use. Well, that is what iwire said was correct doesn't carry any weight with the Code Officials Board. I used your handle for ref only. Nothing personal.

 

[LarryFine]

To compare the installation of a circuit or the extension of one to the accessing a box that is already installed is even funnier. To install a circuit or to extend a circuit I can even remove sheetrock.

Sure, as long as you replace the drywall when you're done. (See last sentence below.)

The verbiage found in section 314.29 is very clear??. shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building? Of course it is. It if the finish of the attic.

In that case, one could claim that air is the attic's surface finish.

When some lonely heart electrician starts digging around in the insulation looking for a junction box he has disturbed the rating of the insulation therefore violating the building code.

Then, why is it okay to remove drywall, install electrical work, then replace the drywall, but not with insulation?

The insulation may obscure simple visibility of the box, but it doesn't impede our access to it (unless you're lazy).

 

[electricmanscott]

Anyone that's been around here for a while knows Mike will argue something ridiculous like this just for the sake of arguing. :roll:

 

[iwire]

Anyone that's been around here for a while knows Mike will argue something ridiculous like this just for the sake of arguing. :roll:

I agree and I refuse to get sucked into the stupidity of his argument this time.

 

[jwelectric]

Then, why is it okay to remove drywall, install electrical work, then replace the drywall, but not with insulation?

The insulation may obscure simple visibility of the box, but it doesn't impede our access to it (unless you're lazy).

So by the very words you post here it would be okay to install a junction box behind sheetrock?

The sheetrock can be removed the same as the insulation can be removed to expose the box can it not?

Anyone who thinks that the insulation is not the finish of the attic has never looked into an attic. Everyone I ever looked at after the final was issued on a house sure had insulation up there. It is required to be there and it is most definitely part of the building. Don?t think so then try leaving it out sometime.

This thread reminds me of what I heard someone say onetime long ago. ?Want to see someone who thinks a little silly just find some wearing a pouch full of screwdrivers and there you are.?

 

[LarryFine]

So by the very words you post here it would be okay to install a junction box behind sheetrock?

The sheetrock can be removed the same as the insulation can be removed to expose the box can it not?

If the insulation is screwed or nailed on, and/or taped and mudded, I'd agree with you.

Anyone who thinks that the insulation is not the finish of the attic has never looked into an attic. Everyone I ever looked at after the final was issued on a house sure had insulation up there. It is required to be there and it is most definitely part of the building. Don’t think so then try leaving it out sometime.

So any exposed surface or material is a finish to you? Then how would you define an unfinished attic or basement? One having no insulation whatsoever? Wouldn't the bare wall then be a finish?

 

[jwelectric]

If the insulation is screwed or nailed on, and/or taped and mudded, I'd agree with you.

So just what does nails, screws, mud, and tape have to do with the words found in 314.29?

So any exposed surface or material is a finish to you? Then how would you define an unfinished attic or basement? One having no insulation whatsoever? Wouldn't the bare wall then be a finish?

Whatever is there when you get there is what you got. If it is bare walls then that is what the finish is. If it is insulation then that is what the finish is.

When the codes are referring to such items as unfinished basements it is not addressing the finish on the walls at all. What it is referring to is whether it is intended for living space. As used in the code it has nothing to do with whether or not there is sheetrock or paneling on the wall.

The insulation in the attic is required by the building code. The building code mandates the R value and thickness of this insulation. To start digging around in the insulation for any reason at all violates the building code. To remove the depth of insulation over the junction box is a violation of both the building code and 314.29 of the NEC

 

[One-eyed Jack]

I see panels concealed by calendars and stuff all the time.

The concealer,typically the owner/tenant is aware of the location.

I see breakers concealed by panel covers and dead fronts every day. Dang, I hate that!

You fully expect to see breakers behind those covers and dead fronts.

just like looking for an open in a circuit and finally finding a device in an odd place? or behind a heavy piece of furniture?
Do you not expect to find outlets every 12 ft or less?


And usually don't have to go back to junction box that I put in, just lucky I guess.

Suppose you did not install these.

So the NEC, which is part of the building codes, requires covers on my switches and outlets. Now I have a violation, right? WHat about the cover on the panel, which is also required?

Don't really need to be a rocket scientist to know there are switches and outlets there.

http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/65/Access_Able_Access_Panels.html

I can lift up a batt of insulation and place it
quote]

Can you lift an entire section of blown insulation?

NFPAs own manual of style and logic says 'workmanlike' is unenforceable. And IMO inspectors that use that section are just grasping at straws to enforce their personal wishes.
Article 10.3


And there you admit it, 'NOT IN MY TOWN' well it is not your town town or jurisdiction,

You seem to take umbrage everytime MY is used in reference to town or jurisdiction. I live,work,play,raised my kids,and pay taxes in this town. It is as much MY town as the place you call home is your home. I also have code enforcement jurisdiction here, MY jurisdiction since I am responsible for this area.

 

[LarryFine]

The insulation in the attic is required by the building code. The building code mandates the R value and thickness of this insulation. To start digging around in the insulation for any reason at all violates the building code. To remove the depth of insulation over the junction box is a violation of both the building code and 314.29 of the NEC

So, nothing that is required by building codes can be disturbed during work or inspection, and then restored? That means every remodel or reconstruction is non-compliant during the work. How can a J-box pass if the plate has to be off for inspection but on for inspection?

If I uncovered such a box at your request, you'd stand there and say "Okay, I see the box, but now, you fail building inspection." Then, when I replace the insulation, and you'd say "Okay, now you pass building, but fail electrical."


So, your point is that one can pass only one inspection at a time. Are you both building and electrical, or would you call the building inspector in so both of you are there at the same time, playing "Pass-me/fail-you."? Either way, what a game you play! :roll:

 

[nhfire77]

Yes I know I would win before any states board in saying an electrical box buried in insulation is a violation of the electrical code section 314.29

Oh sure, you know how everyone else does it. :roll:....And I'm gonna win a beauty contest tomorrow.

Your attitude as an inspector is what is really being judged here not your specific stance on one item.

An AHJ or inspector does not have to be a rigid you know what to do his job, those types are what give inspectors, of all kinds, a bad name.

And yes I was once an municipal inspector, so I know what it feels like to be on that side of the 'law'.

This post in no way should lead you to believe that I think it is a violation of 314.29.

 

[jwelectric]

Come on now Larry you can do a lot better than this and I know it.

314.29 states that no part of the building can be removed in order to access an electrical box.

You contend that should the top of the box be below 12 inches of insulation that pushing that insulation back does no constitute removing that insulation from over the box. I contend that pushing that envelope that is required to be in place by the building codes ?IS? removing the insulation from the place in which it rested and placing it elsewhere.


In order to prove your point you are addressing many different things at the same time such as remodel construction, removable panels and the such when the question is a simple one. Is a box buried in insulation compliant? The simple answer to this question is ?NO? it is not compliant and nothing concerning remodel construction has anything to do with it.

It wouldn?t matter if while I as an inspector was standing there when you uncovered the box or not it would still have been non compliant. If it was your half baked intention to simply shove the insulation back so the box became visible to pass the electrical inspection then I would call in the building inspector and let him turn down the insulation. When the insulation got fixed I would then reject your reinspection plain and simple.

 

[electricmanscott]

314.29 states that no part of the building can be removed in order to access an electrical box

So NO jboxes above dropped ceilings ya bunch of hacks. :roll:

 

[jwelectric]

So NO jboxes above dropped ceilings ya bunch of hacks. :roll:

Are you saying that a ceiling tile and insulation is the same thing?

 

[jwelectric]

Your attitude as an inspector is what is really being judged here not your specific stance on one item.

In order to help you understand my stance just a little better; I'm no inspector. Yes I have passed the highest electrical inspector test available in NC but I choose to do a different profession than inspecting.

 

[ActionDave]

Are you saying that a ceiling tile and insulation is the same thing?

No, you are. And by your deffinition of "remove" the simple act of lifting the tile out of the way is removing it.

 

[dana1028]

Bob , is it concealed or not ? Simple yes or no

Jim - what about boxes & cabinets in a wall with a picture hanging over it [thus hiding it from view]....isn't that concealed? ...yet nobody here would make such an assertion.

I agree about not liking it, but having crawled many attics where insulation was blown in after the fact, it really isn't that big a deal to find the boxes...a nuisance? yes....real big deal? no

 

[LarryFine]

It wouldn’t matter if while I as an inspector was standing there when you uncovered the box or not it would still have been non compliant. If it was your half baked intention to simply shove the insulation back so the box became visible to pass the electrical inspection then I would call in the building inspector and let him turn down the insulation. When the insulation got fixed I would then reject your reinspection plain and simple.

So, my exaggerated example, to wit:

If I uncovered such a box at your request, you'd stand there and say "Okay, I see the box, but now, you fail building inspection." Then, when I replace the insulation, and you'd say "Okay, now you pass building, but fail electrical."

So, your point is that one can pass only one inspection at a time. ... would you call the building inspector in so both of you are there at the same time, playing "Pass-me/fail-you."?

. . . was no exaggeration at all.

 

[LarryFine]

Well, let's run with your ruling:

What do you envision? An ocean of insulation with 2x4 islands poking up here and there, and J-boxes atop them, with the wires stapled down the columns and disappearing into the mist?

 

[hurk27]

I have been in this industry for almost 37 years, I have had to find j-boxes in all kinds of attics and in some of the hottest weather, but did I ever complain, no, it part of doing electrical work, do I hate getting all itchy sure but its part of the job, to say we can't disturb insulation is just goofy, there are all kinds of repairs that will require going up into an attic and disturbing the insulation, HVAC guys have to do it all the time, this is the most dumbest argument I have ever seen on this board, we have been putting j-box's in attics for as long as electricity has been put in buildings, anyone who has been doing this kind of work knows that there will come a day you will have to look for a box in the attics, ITS PART OF THE JOB, I had an inspector who had a bad leg once tried to reject a job, because he couldn't climb a ladder to see into the attic so he red tagged the job because he knew there was a junction box in the attic, well he lost in court as the state ruled it was accessible, in Indiana we have a formal interpretation that junctions boxes in attics meet the intent of the NEC, anyone who can't look for a junction box does not need to be doing electrical work, if your that lazy stay home or find another profession, because it doesn't mater if in the attic or crawl space, if you don't have the right tools to locate wiring you will never be able to properly trouble shoot any electrical system, I have the tools, I have the knowledge, and I do trouble shoot, if you think you will never have to put a junction box in an attic, then I say you haven't done many re-wires, or had to deal with extending circuits to install a receptacle on another wall, or install a paddle fan, and many other things we must do as electrician's, how would you ever relocate a light fixture, would you tear open the walls just to run new wire to the inaccessible switch? bet you wouldn't have to many customers after that, plain and simple, insulation is not a building finish, it is not part of the structure, and is not in any intent of the code making panel as a reason do disallow a junction box in the attic! I will go back into the ROC's to find where this was once requested in a proposal that was shot down, can't remember if it was the 1996 cycle or the 1999 but I remember it was once proposed.
Sorry for the rant, but when some say they will turn a job down just because they don't like it, gets me going. Don't walk on my Constitutional rights, show me the legally adopted law that says you can enforce it or I would have you in court! Self interpretation is not a legal law!