Owner doesn't want permits

[cowboyjwc]

It's not up to the owner to decide if they want a permit or not. It's up to the AHJ to decide when a permit is required and you as a licensed contractor are required by law to get one if one is required.

Don't be the guy who get's the reputation of never being seen in the Building and Safety office. When you do finally show up and you want some help, you really shouldn't be surprised if they are not to sympathetic.

We now turn repeat offenders into the state license board.

 

[Sierrasparky]

It's not up to the owner to decide if they want a permit or not. It's up to the AHJ to decide when a permit is required and you as a licensed contractor are required by law to get one if one is required.

I think the OP's plight is one that of many these days. Turning down work and sustaining your life. waiting for that job with all the ducks in a row.

You are never going to convince the customer to spend a few hundred dollars more to cover the cost of a permit for a hundred dollar job. You are also forgetting that we hear of many licensed EC working for 50 or so dollars and hour. There are plenty of small jobs out for someone to do an put food on the table, pay the rent... There are far fewer that will allow the extra cost to pay 200 dollars extra for a permit on a job costing less than a hundred. Do the math.

 

[renosteinke]

It's all in the way things are presented ....

When I was looking to buy a home, I was stunned to see that the property tax record listed every permit ever pulled for the property. It really makes you think there's someone peeing through your curtains! Not likely to make you fond of city hall; Since the box after the permit description was for the 'new' valuation of the property, it really makes you think every permit will lead to a higher tax.

Don't ask the customer if he wants a permit. We sort of do this when we state that the permit fee is not included in our quote. IMO, permit fees ought to be incidental, and so easy to compute that we feel no fear including them in our quotes. Nobody likes a $400 surprise.

Just accept the job, get your permit, and greet the inspector when he comes. Leave the customer out of it. What's he going to do? Fire you? You've already done the work. If he's surprised when the inspector shows up, just tell him that the inspection is part of the job, and it never occurred to you to do things in any other way.

If the customer opens the relationship with "you don't need a permit" .... well, there's your fair warning that the guy is a skunk. I'll bet he considers your rates too high, and has no intention of paying you either. You don't need that sort of work.

 

[Strife]

In a perfect world I would pull a permit for every job.
But in a perfect world a few outlets WOULD NOT COTS 300-400 dollars while the permit costs 500-600 dollars.
So there's your answer. Take it as you like it.
It's downright ridiculous the amount of paper work and fees the cities require to add one freaking outlet. And it doesn't stop there, once you pull a permit you have to bring other things to code. Here in Florida if you pull a permit you have to have smoke detectors, and the baths outlets changed to GFI, as well as hardwire the water heater if it happens to be a plug and receptacle. So that 600-700 dollars kitchen remodel just turned into a 2500 monster. Very hard for homeowners to swallow it. And I don't blame them.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I my question though was, for instance, on a bathroom or kitchen remodel. Let's say the entire job isn't permitted, I tell the customer that I need to pull an electrical permit. They say they don't want to get a permit. I know that this is almost always because of the extra expense involved. Many HOs use unlicensed workers who couldn't get a permit if they wanted to, and, depending on the size of the project, getting permits may lead to their property being re-assessed and their property tax going up.

Here's the typical scenario. Small bath remodel, I tell them I am going to pull a permit, they ask me not to. What do I do? If I walk away from every job that the HO doesn't want to pull a permit on, I'd be out of work. I hadn't considered, though, that my Gen. liability insurance wouldn't cover damages on an unpermitted project.

And then also, pertaining to my original question, if there are situations where you would stay and do the work without getting the permit, should I have the HO sign off on the refusal to permit it?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Were I am at the permit fees for up to fifty receptacles, switches or lights would be between $46 to $60. The penalties for work without a permit is a minimum of $500 to $2000 from the municipality and up to $10,000 for a first offence from the reglulatory board for electricians though they usually fine a lesser amount.

 

[Strife]

And the permit fees? You mean to tell me I install 50 outlets and is only $60.00 fees when is said and done?
Down here there's a permit fee of around 80-150 depending of the city PLUS give or take 2-3% of the work value (some cities figure it per work value, some figure it per points, but in the end is around that percentage). I've had several permits pulled recently with my work being 500-1200 dollars and the permits were all over 150 some close to 200.
Then what about the time?
3-4 hrs to fill out the permit, do the drawings, find the owner to sign and notarize the permit application, go to the city and submit the application.
1-2 hrs to pick up the permit.
2-3 hrs for the rough inspection (if I'm lucky and the inspector gives me that nice of window to meet him)
Another 2-3 hrs for the final inspection (again, if I'm lucky and the inspector is nice enough to give me that window). And even if you get a nice window it still kills your day as usually it's "between 9 and 11 or between 1 and 3".
Forget the time (I guess we contractors make way too much money so we don't need to get paid for our time), with price of gas nowadays it cost over $100 just in gas to make all those trips I just mentioned.

Were I am at the permit fees for up to fifty receptacles, switches or lights would be between $46 to $60. The penalties for work without a permit is a minimum of $500 to $2000 from the municipality and up to $10,000 for a first offence from the reglulatory board for electricians though they usually fine a lesser amount.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow you guys pay some high permit fees. Here a minimum fee permit which could be a service change, is only $85 and it would only take you about 15 minutes in our office to get it. For our permit fees to be $300 you would have to be doing over $5000 in work. A solar system on a house is only $150.

Like Rick noted, get caught and that $60 is gonna seem like a bargin.:roll:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Wow there cowboy!
I am not saying the permit itself is that much money and i don't know that the other poster is saying the seme. What I do know is that the cost associated with the obtaining the permit is about 200 or so. A contractor needs to charge to write the permit, obtain the permit, meet the inspector once and maybe twice. That cost will need to be passed on to the consumer.

A prudent buyer ( one who thinks he knows best) will look at the cost. He will look at the cost from the guy who will not pull the permit and the cost from the person who will. 99% of the time the consumer will go with the lower price and no permit. This is why garbage work is so prevelant.

This is [was]not the intention pf the permit process.

 

[satcom]

Wow you guys pay some high permit fees. Here a minimum fee permit which could be a service change, is only $85 and it would only take you about 15 minutes in our office to get it. For our permit fees to be $300 you would have to be doing over $5000 in work. A solar system on a house is only $150.

Like Rick noted, get caught and that $60 is gonna seem like a bargin.:roll:

John, they are either paying unusual high fees or they have not been getting permits and are just assuming the price and process is expensive, from hearing talk, from other illegal operators, also reading their view of the inspection process, they don't seem to understand the reason for permits and inspections, many are under the illusion that the only purpose is for the cities to make
revenue, when by law, cities are not allowed to profit from operating the inspection and permit process.

 

[cowboyjwc]

OK Sparky, I'll give you that.

Satcom. That's exactly what I think, If anyone thinks that $85 dollars even starts to cover our cost's associated with a service change permit, then they don't have a clue.

Like I said when I was President of the Little League, we're a nonprofit, not on purpose, that's just the way it's working out.:roll:

 

[Sierrasparky]

The whole license thing is to promote competent work at the minimum standards, this all is accomplished by licensed professionals , inspected by qualified persons and the cost is not supposed to be for profit.

secondly has been used by the taxing agency to use the permit process for the assessment of future taxes based on the value of the work.

 

[SAC]

Here is the "standard" fee schedule for residential in my town. From some posts, this seems really "cheap"?

New Single Family Home or Unit (3 inspections/200 Amp)............$250.00
Additions & Renovations, In-ground Pools (2 inspections).............$75.00
Above Ground Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Appliances, Hot Water Tanks, Etc. (1 Inspection)...............................$50.00
Panel or Meter change (1 inspection/200 Amp)...........................$50.00
Service Change (Meter & Panel, 1 inspection/200 Amp)................$75.00
Service or Panel install over 200Amp (plus base fee)...................$1.00 per Amp
Accessory Service & panel (1 inspection/200 Amp)......................$100.00
Temporary Service (1 inspection/ 200Amp)................................$75.00
Security, Fire, Vacuum, Cable, Low Voltage, Etc. (2 Inspections)....$75.00
Additional Inspections and re-Inspections.................................$50.00

 

[readydave8]

Here is the "standard" fee schedule for residential in my town. From some posts, this seems really "cheap"?

New Single Family Home or Unit (3 inspections/200 Amp)............$250.00
Additions & Renovations, In-ground Pools (2 inspections).............$75.00
Above Ground Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Appliances, Hot Water Tanks, Etc. (1 Inspection)...............................$50.00
Panel or Meter change (1 inspection/200 Amp)...........................$50.00
Service Change (Meter & Panel, 1 inspection/200 Amp)................$75.00
Service or Panel install over 200Amp (plus base fee)...................$1.00 per Amp
Accessory Service & panel (1 inspection/200 Amp)......................$100.00
Temporary Service (1 inspection/ 200Amp)................................$75.00
Security, Fire, Vacuum, Cable, Low Voltage, Etc. (2 Inspections)....$75.00
Additional Inspections and re-Inspections.................................$50.00

so whats the fee for adding a floodlite tied to an existing switch?

 

[SAC]

Good question - but I'd think that it wouldn't be more than $50 given the other stuff that fee would cover. Doesn't seem like the gov here is making any money off this stuff - in fact, I'd guess it must be a "loss" covered by other taxes (processing the application, scheduling, making the inspection, report, etc...).

 

[satcom]

I need to go back to school or have my brain power washed

A home owner pays for a permit and inspection on a home improvement, which increases the asset value of his property and then complains because he had to pay for the increased asset value

 

[Sierrasparky]

Who says adding an outlet or doing a repair is adding or is increasing the value of the property.

 

[satcom]

Who says adding an outlet or doing a repair is adding or is increasing the value of the property.

Adding an outlet is adding value to your property an in most areas requires a permit, a repair does not add value and in most areas does not require a permit or inspection
Installation and repair are not usually treated the same

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here remodel work does nothing to the value of your home, only the addition of square footage or a pool set off the tax asscessor. Most people don't realize that a kitchen remodel adds very little value to your home.

 

[GeorgeB]

Here remodel work does nothing to the value of your home, only the addition of square footage or a pool set off the tax assessor. Most people don't realize that a kitchen remodel adds very little value to your home.

Here in Greenville County SC, and I think in all of SC, there is a limit on how much valuation FOR TAX ASSESSMENT can rise in a period. ANY improvement voids that limit. I had what were substantially repairs to a deck with minor modifications to bring it to code. I took it on myself to get a permit; the handyman who did the work said he normally wouldn't. My property taxes went up over $300/year for my $1500 repair/legalization. The appraised value for taxes went up 30+%. The appraised value (actual) went up 1%.

Did I do the right thing ... unquestionably. Would I do it again ... I don't know.

 

[satcom]

Here in Greenville County SC, and I think in all of SC, there is a limit on how much valuation FOR TAX ASSESSMENT can rise in a period. ANY improvement voids that limit. I had what were substantially repairs to a deck with minor modifications to bring it to code. I took it on myself to get a permit; the handyman who did the work said he normally wouldn't. My property taxes went up over $300/year for my $1500 repair/legalization. The appraised value for taxes went up 30+%. The appraised value (actual) went up 1%.

Did I do the right thing ... unquestionably. Would I do it again ... I don't know.

When you think about did you do the right thing, I Would say you sure did and may of saved the rest of your life, I was working a pool wire job in a large tract of homes when we heard loud noises from the home across the street, as we walked to the front to see was going on the police and paramedics were pulling up what had happened was a little girl from the neighborhood got her head stuck in the deck ballasters on the homes new non permited non inspected deck and she was hanging there struggling to breath, what we later learned was the handyman that did the job did not space the ballasters at the required spacing, his neighbor told us the little girl was alive but would most likely need lifetime care, after about a year we went back to the pool job to wire a heater and we noticed a for sale sign on the home across the street, turned out the guy was sued lost the home and his wife moved on. So yes you did the right thing.